The Story of Jake "The Snake" Roberts in ECW

At ECW’s November to Remember ‘98 from New Orleans, Tommy Dreamer was in need of a mystery partner to face Justin Credible and Jack Victory. While there are many names that Tommy could have picked, he ended up choosing someone completely unexpected, someone who had only shown up in ECW once before. A legend whose appearance seemed random to some, but ended up fitting into a story. I’m talking about Jake “The Snake” Roberts, someone who seemed like they would fit into ECW like a glove, a cole miners glove if you will, but ended up not staying for very long.




In this video, we’ll look at the short time in ECW of Jake “The Snake” Roberts. We’ll look at how and why he came to be there, what he did on screen and behind the scenes, and what it meant for another legend more accustomed to ECW.




As usual, I’m going to be using the newsletters to see what was reported at the time, but you’re also going to hear from both Jake Roberts himself and others from Jake’s podcast, the Snake Pit, and maybe even some other sources.




When asked about his time in ECW In December 2023, Jake Roberts made note that it was very brief. “I was in ECW only for two instances, and each time, for a few hours.” He goes on to explain that he knew Paul Heyman already having worked with him in WCW, another company Jake was only in for a short while. “Paul and I spoke extensively about him managing me. That was something tossed around quite a bit between us, and then I left.” Whether this meant that Jake would have been part of the Dangerous Alliance or not we’ll never know. That would have been interesting though, because as far as I know, Jake in his in ring days was never part of a faction. Would he have stood out in a group like the alliance, or would he have been better as a lone snake? I wonder if Paul, dubbed the “psycho yuppie” at the time, would have acted as some kind of business manager making deals for Jake, or maybe a sort of handler for him. One thing that is clear though is that Jake certainly didn’t need anyone doing the talking for him. Perhaps we’ll never know.




Before showing up in ECW, the last time he had wrestled on a major show was as a part of the 1997 Royal Rumble match. Jake left WWF a couple of months later, with his last match there being a March 1st house show in Louisiana where he would defeat the Goon. A week before this at the February 24th Raw from the Manhattan Center, ECW would invade the show that night, and backstage is where Tommy Dreamer would meet Jake Roberts for the first time. In January 2024, filling in for Jake on The Snake Pit, Tommy Dreamer would tell the story in more detail, saying that Jake used him to block the he and Jack Lanza were smoking, as Vince hated it. *clip* In the same podcast, Tommy also talked about how he used to watch Jake in the early days of his career, as a lower card wrestler in Mid-Atlantic Wrestling, where he described Jake as “an underneath talent that would always have a good match.” It wouldn’t be too long though from that night in Manhattan, that Tommy would actually get to share the ring with Jake, only briefly.




According to the Pro Wrestling Torch, Jake was fired midway through March “after missing work without notice.” It turns out though that past actions had also contributed to this, as the Observer in the same week reports a bit more information. “Two weeks back he took a rental car while on the Texas-Louisiana tour and disappeared for two days including missing a shot. It was just a few weeks back when he was fired, but then re-hired the next day for something similar. I guess his nine lives were up this time. He’d been working in the office helping write television besides working as an occasional in-ring performer when needed.” There had also been an incident a few weeks earlier where Jake, Diesel and Razor Ramon were sent to a AAA event, but this was not their fault “as the airport in Madero was fogged in”, so they couldn’t get their flight. How topical. Even after being fired, Jake would continue to work for AAA, still teaming with Diesel and Razor, as the three had been a pretty regular trio there. This turns out to be nowhere near as cool as it sounds. If you were keen eyed, you might have noticed that it was actually the fake Razor and Diesel. Jake would work indies in the US as well, until getting a surprising phone call.




Hardcore Heaven 1997




At Hardcore Heaven 1997, only ECW’s second ever pay per view, Jake Roberts would make his first appearance for the promotion. He would interfere in a match between Tommy Dreamer and Jerry Lawler, which was part of the long running ECW versus Lawler and the WWF feud which would carry on throughout the year. Jerry was as involved as he was not just because of his constant mocking of ECW on Raw at this time, but also because the feud had bled over into USWA in Memphis, where Lawler regularly appeared. On June 7th, Tommy Dreamer would actually show up in Memphis at the TV studio where USWA was filmed, and would go after Lawler, looking like more of a threat than he ever has in his entire career.




During the match, as Tommy had devious plans for Lawler with the ring post, the lights would go out in the War Memorial Auditorium. When they came back on, Ravishing Rick Rude would attack Dreamer with a trash can, leaving him laying. Rude had appeared for ECW before, but it was still an odd sight to see him there. He throws Tommy into the ring for Lawler to pin him, but Dreamer kicks out at two while Rude disappears. A little later on, Tommy goes for a Piledriver, and the lights go out again. When they come back on, Jake Roberts is standing in the ring, and clotheslines Dreamer. Jerry Lawler looks like he has seen a ghost, calling back to their feud in WWF a year earlier. In Tommy’s Snake Pit episode, he tells a story of hearing the sound of someone getting winded while the lights were out, alleging that Jake had taken the opportunity to get a cheap shot in at Lawler, but in a separate Snake Pit episode Jake denies this, while laughing wryly. Regardless, Jake and Jerry are clearly not friends, but Tommy still gets hit with a DDT. Jake then blasts Lawler with a clothesline and leaves. Lawler again tries to cover Tommy who kicks out, and rather confusingly, Jake applauds this as he walks away. Joey Styles exclaims “Jake is clearly here for personal reasons,” as an attempt to explain what was going on. The match continues with the lights going out a third and final time, with Sunny being the last surprise. All of this was designed to build Tommy up as the heart and soul of ECW, battling against all odds. Tommy Cena would eventually overcome all of the interference, and would win the match.




At the start of this video when I quoted Jake referring to his time in ECW as brief, and he wasn’t at all kidding. In the week after the pay per view, the Torch would report that “Jake Roberts arrived just in time to appear on the PPV as a surprise, about 15 minutes before they would have had to do the angle without him.” Wade Keller isn’t clear about this, but he makes it sound like Jake arrived at the building well into the event being underway. He continues, “Originally Roberts was going to be the final surprise, not Sunny, but ECW either (a) decided at the last second Sunny was a bigger deal, (b) were worried about Roberts’s recent track record and didn’t want to put too much heat on him, or (c) were upset with his late arrival and his immediate conduct backstage and decided to downplay him a bit.” To give the other side, this isn’t quite how Jake explains it on his podcast. From what he said in February 2024, the arrangements seemed to be very last minute, but he claims he was at the building a fair bit before the show started. He also says that he was flown in specially, and that he was paid well by Paul Heyman to appear. *clip*




Before Jake left the ring, he approached the camera and made quite a perplexing statement, made even more confusing by his recent positioning of himself as a religious man. Here is what he said quoted word for word on the Snake Pit. *CLIP* Jake would note in the retelling of the story that he found himself in a lot of trouble when he got back to the locker room, and to this day doesn’t know why. Perhaps he wasn’t familiar with ECW’s previous issues with religion, as less than a year earlier at High Incident, Raven and the Sandman had gone too far in depicting a crucifixion. It makes sense that upon hearing Jake’s comments that were said right into the camera, Paul didn’t want a repeat of what happened in the previous October.




If you’re wondering how ECW explained Jake’s motivation after Hardcore Heaven, well, they didn’t. In the following episode of Hardcore TV there was barely any mention of Jake, only in a brief recap where they showed a still image of him there. Tommy Dreamer didn't mention him in his promo either. I wonder if Jake being so late to the show was the reason for this? Maybe they didn’t have the time they wanted to film a follow up for TV, and Jake wasn’t going to be at the next taping. While Rick Rude would appear on the show a week later with Shane Douglas, and Sunny would return to ECW with Chris Candido, Jake wouldn’t come back for a few months, leaving everything vague and unexplained. When he did, nothing would be made clearer then either.




Terry Funk’s Wrestlefest




While maybe not technically an ECW appearance, and Jake himself doesn’t seem to consider it one, there is a match that Jake had around this time which deserves a mention. On September 11th 1997, Terry Funk’s WrestleFest would take place in where else but Amarillo Texas. While the show was promoted officially by Terry and his wife Vicki, and it included talent from WWF, ECW and FMW. “It was billed as 50 years of Funk–as Dory Funk Sr. came from Indiana to Texas in 1947 and eventually became the biggest wrestling star and owner of the territory based in Amarillo until his death in 1973. It was also billed as the final match for Terry Funk in his home town where he started wrestling in 1965.” If you’re curious, it would not be Terry’s last match in Amarillo, as he would have two more there. In 2000, he would wrestle Lance Storm on a WCW house show, and in 2002 he would face Greg Valentine for the XWF.




There seems to be quite a lot of grey area as to whether this can be called an ECW event though, and it’s easy to see why. As noted it was promoted in name by Terry and his wife, but the ECW crew produced it, and it was promoted for several weeks in advance on Hardcore TV, with the home video also being promoted on the show afterwards. As well as this, a couple of ECW matches on the card would later air on Hardcore TV. During the show, Paul Heyman would take the microphone and thank Terry for all he had done for ECW. He would present him with his own world title belt, dubbing him the “lifetime Heavyweight champion”. ECW’s fingerprints were all over the show, but it can also be called an independent event. I’m sure Paul Heyman would have loved for it to be known as his, as it drew nearly four thousand fans, which at the time would have by far been the largest crowd ECW ever drew, though they would top this two months later at November to Remember ‘97. Dave noted in his coverage that “Heyman and Funk will try to promote another show in Amarillo in early 1998 which would be a total ECW card.” This planned event would not take place.




If you ever wondered what it might look like if Bret Hart competed in ECW, this is as close as we ever got, as he would face Terry Funk in the main event. Not only that, but Bret was the WWF champion at the time, and wanted to be there out of respect for Terry Funk. Mick Foley also appeared as his Mankind persona to face Sabu. This would be the only time ever that Foley wrestled Sabu using his WWF name and not Cactus Jack.




Just before the main event though, Jake Roberts would compete in a six man tag, teaming up with former WWF team the Headhunters, against Hakushi, Hayabusa and future ECW world champion, Masato Tanaka. As best I can tell, this would have been Tanaka’s first ever match outside Japan. In the Observer, Dave would say that “Roberts got the biggest pop of anyone not named Funk. Although he was overweight and laughing his way through the match, in no way did he hurt the match.” If you’d like a peek behind the curtain at how frustrating it can be to reference both the Observer and the Torch, Michael Daugherty’s review of the event for the Torch states that “Roberts appeared to have slimmed down a bit since leaving the WWF.” Which one is it lads?




In what was perhaps a questionable decision, “The Japanese worked as the faces, but the crowd due to the recognition of Roberts, cheered them.” Despite this, Hayabusa would get the win, pinning Headhunter A after a move from the top rope. This would be the penultimate match that Hayabusa would ever have in the US, with his last being at ECW Heat Wave ‘98, teaming with Hakushi against Rob Van Dam and Sabu. For reasons we’ll get into very soon, it’s very interesting that Jake would be a part of Terry Funk’s sort of not quite a retirement show. That’s because this wouldn’t be the last we’d see of Terry Funk.




November to Remember 1998




Jake Roberts would spend the end of 1997 and most of ‘98 largely working independents. Notable matches include an ungodly number of clashes throughout the year with the One Man Gang for a promotion called Bad Boys of Wrestling, and a tag team match in Kent England opposite future British wrestling great Doug Williams for a promotion called NWA Hammerlock. This is the same place that trained Finn Balor and Zack Sabre Junior among others, and got them their starts in wrestling.




At one point it was thought that Jake was actually set for return to WCW, which certainly seemed possible given that none of the people who were in charge when Jake was there the first time still had power. In and around March of ‘98, Raven would repeatedly reference “The Snake” in promos, making it sound like Jake was coming in. They certainly convinced Dave Meltzer, who wrote in the Observer on March 23rd that “Raven again brought up The Snake and they wouldn’t be bringing up his name if he wasn’t coming in. Hell, they don’t even bring up Ric Flair or Bret Hart’s name and they are in.” Ultimately this never led anywhere, and Roberts would not appear. In April 2023, Raven would actually address this on an episode of The Snake Pit, saying that he was essentially paying tribute to one of his influences, and that Jake wasn’t actually coming in. *clip*




This next one might seem a bit pointless, but you’ll see why I’ve included it in a minute. In June a match would be promoted for World Pro Wrestling in Fort Smith Arkansas pitting Jake against Brian Knobs “being billed as a WWF vs. WCW match.” I bring this up partly because of the novelty of neither wrestler working for either company at the time, and partly because a few of the other names on the card caught my eye, like this one. You read that one out loud cos I’m not doing it.




And now we come to November to Remember 1998, and the mystery partner that I talked about at the start of this video. It seems that in the lead up to the pay per view, Paul Heyman hadn’t yet secured a surprise partner for Dreamer, and wouldn’t until almost bell time. According to Tommy Dreamer on the Snake Pit, he discovered who his partner was going to be on the morning of the event, and he did in the strangest possible way. While hung over having partied the night before in New Orleans, Tommy says he answered the phone to Paul, who requested that he source quote, a “ten foot boa,” because Jake was going to be on the show. *clip* Tommy goes on to say that he never even tried to find such a snake, or any snake for that matter, but he told Paul that he had tried. *clip*




On thing that is very noticeable about Jake as he walks to the ring is his interesting attire. Jake by this time had not completely begun wrestling in his street clothes, as he wore ring gear in the Terry Funk promoted event, however on this night Jake didn't exactly look like he was ready for a wrestling match. That’s because similar Hardcore Heaven the previous year, “Jake Roberts missed his flight to get to the PPV. They had to charter a plane at the last second and he arrived literally a minute before he walked out onto the rampway for his match.” A contributor for the Torch who reviewed the match wasn’t at all keen on the clothes Jake walked into the building wearing, asking “why couldn’t they give him an ECW shirt to wear instead of that goofy one he showed up in?” In Tommy’s defence, he claims on The SNake Pit that he offered Jake an ECW short that he refused. The reason he turned this down might become more clear by the time we get to the end of the video. The shirt he is wearing in case you were interested is a Wigan Warriors rugby shirt. As Tommy said in the clip I played earlier, Jake was actually living in England around this time, and so getting him to New Orleans wasn’t as easy as sending a plane across state lines like the first time. He would move there some time in the late 90’s, and would remain part of the UK wrestling scene until he moved back to the US in late 2004, even promoting his own shows and running a wrestling school based in St. Albans, Hertfordshire. In the end, it’s probably for the best that Tommy didn’t manage to bring a ten foot snake to the show, as Roberts being so late and having a strange boa thrown onto him definitely doesn’t sound like the best idea, but you can bet ECW would have tried it.




While Jake would never be seen in ECW again, his appearance would fuel a story development that would play out over the next few months. At the beginning of the pay per view, while Joey Styles is doing his usual introduction to the show, Terry Funk enters through the crowd. He makes his way to the ring from the very top of the arena. Once in the ring, Terry who at this point is cheered by the fans, goes on a tirade about how he wasn’t invited to the show, about how he is Tommy Dreamer’s Father figure, and he rages about not being chosen as the mystery partner. He tells us that years ago Tommy asked Funk to be his mentor, and he accepted, but he’d been waiting for weeks to be called, but he never was.




It seems that going into the pay per view, the fans were fully meant to believe that Tommy’s partner could only possibly be one man, Terry Funk. On the episode of Hardcore TV a week before the show, Joey Styles outright tells us that it’s got to be Funk. Joey says quote, “Now come on, we all know every time in the past when Tommy has needed help, he reached out to his Father-figure, his mentor.” He then cuts to a video package of the last time Dreamer and Funk teamed up for a match in December ‘97 for FMW. While footage plays of the two defeating the Dudley Boys to the tune of Desperado by the Eagles, is a voiceover from Tommy telling us that Terry Funk is his mentor with the subtlety of a sledgehammer through a window.




Tommy comes out and tries to smooth the situation over by explaining himself, but Terry is having none of it. While not on the microphone, we can hear Tommy say “you wanted a lighter schedule and that’s fine,” implying that he thought he was doing the right thing. Funk does a pretty masterful job of entering the ring a hero, and leaving it completely detestable through what he says, and more would play out later on in the night.




As Tommy walks out to the ring later in the night to the familiar tune of “Man in the Box”, he stops on the walkway and Jake Roberts slinks in behind him. While Jake doesn’t exactly do nothing in the match, there are times early on where he is alone in the ring on his own while Dreamer and Justin brawl outside, and he’s not exactly very active. For most of the match once it settles down, Jake is in the corner waiting for the tag while Tommy fends off not just Justin, but his whole entourage. In the wrong corner for a fair bit of it too. Once Jake gets in, he and Tommy go after Justin and Jayson Knight, who noticeably does a lot in the match despite not being officially in it. It turns out that there is a reason for this, as early on in the match, Jake throws Victory over the top rope, who lands badly and according to Dreamer, “his knee explodes”. By this point the match seems if you’ll pardon the pun, snake bit. A bit later on you can see Jack on the apron favouring his knee, and he does little in the match after this. Tommy says on the Snake pit that Jayson had been listening when the match was being put together, and so managed to fill in all of Jack’s parts perfectly.




When it looks like it might be time for the DDT, more of Justin’s weird collection of ally’s, the One Man Gang and Rod Price run in. To intercept them, out come New Jack and John Kronus, bringing with them a collection of weapons. While an absolute brawl takes place, Jake can be seen lying on the apron, at one point having what looks like a full conversation with Jack Victory. The match at this point breaks down into chaos, as Kronus hits a 450 splash, and referee Jim Molinaux begins to count for a pin before realising he is not actually in the match. Once Jake gets up, he goes to the wrong corner, until he remembers that he is the legal man and gets back in. Of all people to take the DDT, it’s Nicole Bass, who also gets hit with a low blow. Tommy Dreamer brings a ladder in, perhaps foreshadowing the stairway to hell match he and Justin would have in January at Guilty as Charged. Jake DDT’s Justin onto it, and pins him to win. The match is, quite frankly, bowling shoe ugly as JR would call it, I'd argue fun though. To be fair to all involved though, Tommy claims in his Snake Pit episode “He shows up during the show, and I’m trying to put the whole match together without my partner there not knowing what he wants to do. Again, I also have to deal with Jake the Snake, who I don’t really know.” I don’t know what that must be like, but it certainly doesn’t sound like an easy task. Tommy refers to the match as “all mess ups and ad-libbed,” and also one of his “least favorite matches of all time,” but you can say that there were a lot of circumstances that made it the way it was. The match did give us a truly rare sight, a Tommy Dreamer win against Justin Credible. True to the nature of Tommy’s entire career though, he wouldn’t be able to celebrate for long.




After the match as Jake and Tommy are leaving, Terry Funk comes back. He first rants about Jake Roberts being the mystery partner, to which Jake throws his hands up and leaves. No matter how much Terry shouts at him, Tommy refuses to fight, so Terry attacks him from behind, leaving Tommy laying. Joey Styles then explains to us that Terry left ECW for the WWF, and then left there to film a movie, and so Tommy wasn’t at fault for not asking him, as Tommy is helped away.




In the newsletters, the critical reception to Jake being the mystery partner was not complimentary. The Torch would print various takes ranging from confusion as to why Jake was booked, to disgust that he was not in as good shape as Hollywood Hogan in WCW at the time. Those last ones are a bit galling as it’s not like Hogan was having classics in 1998 either. The Observer wasn’t much kinder, referring to Jake as a “relic”, and also complaining about the use of Mabel, who rather weirdly was brought in as a guest member of the Full Blooded Italians. I’m not sure it’s completely fair to put them in the same category. You could argue that Tommy picking Jake made storyline sense, as Terry was perhaps even more upset by him choosing another veteran and not himself.




Ending




In June 2023, Jake was asked if there was ever supposed to be more planned for him in ECW, and he simply answered “no.” He elaborates that everything he was supposed to do there was a one off, and he doesn’t seem to be gutted about that either. When asked his opinion on ECW as a whole, sometimes he has stated that it was quote “a bit much” for him, and other times he has said quite emphatically that he is not a fan of ECW’s product. *clip*




Not only that, but Jake doesn't sound too fond of the ECW fans either. In 2022, he referred to them as “kids who were allowed to be out of control,” though he also goes on to say “I appreciated how much they loved their wrestling.”




When I think about what Jake could have done in ECW, assuming he was going to stay out of trouble, and had he wanted to be there a bit more, I think of all of the people that he could have been a valuable mouthpiece for. Jake didn’t care for the in ring product or the tone of ECW, so I doubt he’d have gotten in the ring much, but his mind for wrestling could have been so valuable, especially when paired with some of the newer talents who were coming in around the time of Jake’s last appearance there.




It’s hard to imagine that he would have been another Terry Funk, someone who at least in ECW lore is said to have wanted to help everybody he came into contact with, but as we’ve seen in wrestling over the years, few veterans are that generous. Let me know in the comments who you would have paired Jake up with as a manager and why, or even what story ideas you think would have been good for the Snake.





Sources:

Pre ECW

Snake Pit Ep 53 December 2023 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAJM7L-C-tw

PWT MAtch 22nd 97 Jake fired https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/03/11/vip-1997-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-432-mar-22-1997-cover-story-on-bret-hart-snapping-after-loss-to-sid-foreshadowing-major-wm-main-event-angle-coverage-of-wwf-msg-tv-special-with/

WON Mar 24th Jake fired https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/march-24-1997-wrestling-observer-newsletter-future-mma-takes-turn/

WON March 10th Madero airport https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/march-10-1997-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wrestlemania-xiii-line-joe/




HH97

PWT Aug 23rd 97 Jake at HH97 https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/08/14/vip-1997-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-454-august-23-1997-analysis-of-ecws-second-ever-ppv-hardcore-heaven-97-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-wcw-more/

Feb 9th 2024 Snake Pit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4i9hFmuji8




Funk’s WrestleFest

WON Sept 22nd 97 https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/sept-22-1997-wrestling-observer-newsletter-huge-issue-w-fritz-von/

PWT Sept 20th 97 Jake lost weight https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/09/09/vip-1997-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-458-september-20-1997-michaels-pulls-another-stunt-at-raw-tapings-uswa-in-turmoil-with-jerry-lawler-being-sued-austins-tenuous-in-ring-future/




N2R 98

WON March 23rd 1998 Jake WCW bound https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/march-23-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wcw-turmoil-ufc-16-tons/

April 28th 2023 Raven on the Snake Pit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsfHc9PiXyQ

WON June 1st 1998 Jake vs Knobs https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/june-1-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-observer-awards-preview-tons/

PWT Nov 7th Match review https://vip.pwtorch.com/2018/11/03/vip-1998-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-519-november-7-1998-coverage-of-jesse-ventura-being-elected-governor-of-minnesota-detailed-report-on-the-ecw-november-to-remember-ppv-coverage/

PWT Nov 14th Missed flight, goofy shirt https://vip.pwtorch.com/2018/11/10/vip-1998-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-520-november-14-1998-cover-story-on-first-major-signs-of-wcw-spiralling-downward-mitchell-coverage-of-jesse-ventura-election-keller-updates-on/

Jake in the UK https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalWrestlingHistoricalSociety/posts/24622141724073321/

WON Nov 9th Match review https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-9-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-jesse-ventura-wins/




Ending

Jun 6th 2023 Not having any more to do https://youtu.be/U5BPPRc8sMI

Jake shoot interview - Hannibal TV, February 26th 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcELdQf2XCw

Apr 28th 2022 Jake not liking ECW fans https://youtu.be/4xWfsLlP_7A

 

The US Tour of Kenta Kobashi - Everywhere He Nearly Went

                                 

Just over twenty years ago in Manhattan, New York, one of indie wrestling’s legit dream matches took place. Noah’s legend Kenta Kobashi, known for some of the most stunning strong style matches ever, would face Samoa Joe, young in his career, but racking up big matches at the time. There are already some great videos out there about Joe vs Kobashi, and to be clear, this video isn’t about that match. It’s about the matches and appearances that could have happened, that might have been on the cards, but in the end weren’t.


In this video, we’ll look at the US excursion of Kenta Kobashi. We’ll look at how the tour came about, including all of the promotions he did, and nearly did work for. Then we’ll look at how he ended up at Ring of Honor, up to the announcement of his match with Samoa Joe.


You’ll hear about what was reported at the time by both the Torch and the Observer, but you’ll also hear comments from Gabe Sapolsky from an interview recorded years later.


Kenta Kobashi was thirty eight years old and seventeen years into his career in 2005. He was very much an active full timer though, competing in over a hundred matches in Noah alone that year. On July 18th 2005, he had a match that had a lot of people talking at Noah’s Destiny event, against Kensuke Sasaki. The match was so well regarded, it caused CM Punk of all people to rave about it on his Live Journal page, at the same time chastising everyone who didn’t see it as a classic. I promise that's a thing that happened, and I wish Punk kept up his blogging these days.


Despite Kobashi’s many accomplishments, one thing he had not done so far in his career was wrestle a match outside Japan. He had wrestled for an American company though, sort of. On April 13th 1990, Kenta wrestled at the Tokyo Dome, on a show co-promoted by All Japan, New Japan and WWF. He and Masanobu Fushi lost a tag team match early on the card to Tito Santana and Jimmy Snuka, on a night where Hulk Hogan versus Stan Hansen would be the main event. Though Kobashi had wrestled plenty of Americans, from the Rock and Roll Express, to Cactus Jack to Vader in his Noah days, he was yet to go there himself. That would be set to change in the Summer of 2005.


The US Tour


The first mention of Kobashi possibly going to the US is reported in the July 4th Wrestling Observer. It’s also claimed that he wouldn't be coming alone. “Kobashi, KENTA (that’s the other Kenta) and Marufuji are coming to the U.S. from 9/21 to 9/24 for a Harley Race scouting camp at Race’s school in Eldon, MO. They will probably wrestle on a WLW show, and there is talk of them doing a Pro Wrestling Iron show that week in Northern California as a TV taping.” In 1999, Harley Race founded World League Wrestling, an NWA territory and wrestling school in Missouri which is still running today even after Harley’s passing, currently run by his son Leland. He would hold an annual training camp that would take place in September. Each year, different representatives from Pro Wrestling Noah would be sent for this camp, and in 2005 it was the turn of Kobashi, KENTA and Marafuji. It seems that Harley had managed to keep good relationships with virtually everyone in the business, as a 2008 article from Slam Wrestling details the camp, promising that “representatives from the WWE and NOAH” would be present. “The cream of the crop will be invited to participate in a wrestling card at the end of the camp, which will be filmed by both NOAH and the WWE. “So it’s the opportunity to perhaps be seen in front of worldwide audience,” Race noted — a pretty rare opportunity indeed.” If you thought as I did upon hearing that WWE being involved sounded strange, here is an article from wwe.com that I found advertising Harley’s training camp, even mentioning Kenta Kobashi as scheduled to attend. While there is no date or author listed on the page, the dates in the article match when Kobashi was set to be there in 2005.


WWE’s involvement wouldn't end there though. After Kobashi’s visit to the US, reports would come out of Japan about a meeting between Kobashi and a WWE office employee who was at the Harley Race camp. That WWE employee was at the time their EVP of talent relations, John Laurinitis. While on the surface a meeting like that might sound strange, the two did have history together. Ahead of the meeting Dave Meltzer would point out “It could be just for Japanese p.r. Kobashi & Johnny Ace were a regular tag team nearly 15 years ago with All Japan, feuding with Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas.” He later notes that the two likely won’t have seen each other in a few years, as Ace stopped going over to Japan, possibly when he joined WWE. While the two were together, Johnny Ace would tell Japanese press “that they’d love to have Kobashi face their top stars like Angle, HHH and Undertaker,” though Dave reasoned, or possibly hoped, “Most likely nothing will transpire, because NOAH needs Kobashi and he’s a lifer with the company.” In another interesting thought, Ace also told the press “he’d like to set up a meeting with Vince McMahon and Mitsuharu Misawa.” Despite Ace putting this out into the universe, I doubt we were going to see Misawa come in at Wrestlemania 22 to try and stop the streak, but it probably would have been better than the Mark Henry match.


While he was there, Kenta Kobashi would have a match for World League Wrestling, making this, not his ROH matches that took place later in the week, his actual US debut. He would face Wade Chism, a staple of WLW shows, and Harley’s champion at the time. Wade was a trainee of Harley Race, and seemed to make WLW his main promotion, though he did go over and wrestle a tour with Noah and also had a WWE match on Velocity. In a 2011 interview with Missouri Wrestling Revival, Wade claimed that Harley said he had big plans for him, which seemed to be accurate. Wade would win several tag team titles most notably with another WLW trainee, Trevor Murdoch, and was also a five time Heavyweight champion for the promotion. While the fans in Eldon Missouri were unlikely to get a five star classic that night, the Observers report said that “Fans were giving Kobashi a standing o just for the chops. Chism didn’t do much, but came off good just for taking it.” Also on the card, KENTA would compete in a tag team match, and earlier in the evening, a young Kenny Omega would wrestle, just a few months before briefly appearing in WWE developmental promotion Deep South wrestling.


On this night, standing in the ring, Harley would take the opportunity to really show Kobashi the utmost respect. “Race, who was nicknamed Mr. Pro Wrestling in Japan, told Japanese reporters that he’s giving his nickname to Kobashi because he deserves it.” This wasn’t all though, as after Kobashi’s match, Harley would tell the crowd about the Mr. Pro Wrestling name, and then “presented Kobashi with one of his old NWA world title belts and declared him the greatest wrestler in the world.” From the reports of fans who were there, Kenta wore the belt in the ring, then politely took it off and handed it back to Harley Race.


So that’s the reason why Kobashi was heading to the US to begin with, but let’s take a closer look at the other promotions that were in the running to have Kenta appear for them. Pro Wrestling Iron was a school and promotion founded in 2002 in Haywood California, by two wrestlers very familiar with Pro Wrestling Noah, Michael Modest and Donovan Morgan, and a third owner Frank Murdoch. Morgan and Modest had begun wrestling as a tag team in Noah in 2001. They and Murdoch started their own company after leaving local rival APW on bad terms. PWI, not that one, had a strong Japanese influence because of the promoters and their ties to Noah. They would feature Noah talent such as Bison Smith, who was their champion for close to seven hundred days, and were even able to promote a handful of Mitsuharu Misawa’s few US matches. Misawa had previously wrestled a few US matches in 1986 when he was portraying the second version of Tiger Mask, so you could say that his 2002 match for Pro Wrestling Iron was his US debut under his own name. Despite a booking with Kobashi on the cards in July, Pro Wrestling Iron would close its doors in September, before Kobashi’s tour would happen. Each of the three owners would have their own reasons for this. “Modest bought a home in upstate California which is hours away from Hayward. Morgan, who said he’s gotten burned out on wrestling, recently got married and is moving to Florida. Murdoch is getting out of wrestling.”


Another promotion that was talked about early on was one you might not expect. “They are also said to have interest in working a TNA PPV, although at press time no talks have happened with either side”. On the surface, a Pro Wrestling Noah talent shouldn’t have been able to turn up in TNA, because they at the time had a strong link with New Japan, one that would only get stronger in the coming years. TNA would from time to time bring in big names from New Japan for appearances on their pay per views. In October, they would welcome Jushin Liger for a match with Samoa Joe at Bound For Glory, and they would bring in future Ace, Hiroshi Tanahashi in January for a match with AJ Styles. Starting in 2006, New Japan would be represented in TNA’s World X Cup tournament, with the team of Jushin Liger, Black Tiger IV, Minorou Tanaka and Hirooki Goto being sent that year.


A couple of weeks later in the July 18th Observer, Dave Meltzer provides more detail on the idea of Kobashi appearing for TNA, and the potential challenges. “NOAH officials have said that TNA can use Kobashi as long as it’s in between tours. The hold-up there is political, because TNA is aligning itself with New Japan, and that alliance may prevent the booking.” Only this year in August 2025, Jeff Jarrett addressed these reports on his My World podcast. When Conrad reads the Observer to him, Jeff never actually names Noah or directly addresses the chance to bring Kobashi in, but says that he wanted TNA to have one promotion they were working with in Mexico and one in Japan, implying that they were happy enough to just work with New Japan. *clip*


Dave also noted in the Observer that it seemed at the time like the political issues could have been avoided however, and that would have been through the olive branch of professional wrestling, Harley Race, who was said to be on good terms with both Noah and TNA, having had a history with both. As well as Harley’s links with Noah and WWE through his training camps, his good relationship with TNA may well have come through them both being NWA affiliated at the time. On June 19th 2002, Harley would appear on TNA’s first ever event, in the very first segment, as part of a parade of NWA legends that would be brought to the ring. In fact, Harley is one of the very first faces seen on that broadcast, and is given the task of making the NWA World title feel important for it was put on the line in the main event. Unlike TNA and Pro Wrestling Iron, Kenta Kobashi would actually make it to Harley’s training camp, and I’ll cover that when I get to it in the timeline. Before we do though, there is one question left to answer, how did Ring of Honor come to be involved?


According to ROH’s booker at the time Gabe Sapolsky, he made a phone call, apparently at this very desk, to Harley Race upon hearing that Kobashi would be in the country. *clip 1* Gabe says that Harley was initially surprised about the request, not expecting anyone to want to book him, perhaps not knowing how aware American fans were of Kobashi’s work. *clip 2* A few weeks later after the announcement of Kobashi going to ROH had been made, the Observer mentions that there were also “attempts to get him booked on 10/7 and 10/8 for FIP in Florida”, with Full Impact pro being ROH’s sister promotion of sorts. These bookings are never mentioned in any reporting again, and they might have fallen through due to scheduling. On the date of one of the FIP shows, Kobashi wrestled for Noah in Korakuen Hall. Another thing that Gabe mentioned is that booking Kobashi quote, “wasn’t cheap”, so I imagine that extending his US trip by a few weeks would have been very expensive for FIP. *clip* If you’re curious, Full Impact Pro did have a guest of honour that weekend, a very different one, as Sean Waltman would wrestle a main event match against Jimmy Rave, which I bet had a ton less chops than Kobashi vs Rave would have had.


Timeline


July 8th - The Announcement

Now that I’ve covered all of the promotions that were potentially involved, let’s look at the timeline leading up to Kenta Kobashi’s Ring Of Honor matches. On July 8th ROH would present Sign of Dishonor from Lake Grove New York, not exactly close to where Kobashi’s match would take place, which might be important in a bit. It was also the company's first ever event in the Long Island area. This show would actually take place one after Death Before Dishonor 3, where CM Punk would surprisingly win the ROH title, when it was known that he was WWE bound. The name of the show comes from the opening segment, where Punk would come to the ring uncharacteristically wearing a suit, and would sign his WWE contract on the Ring of Honor World Championship belt. It was later on this night where the official announcement was made that Kenta Kobashi would be coming to ROH. Unfortunately for the company though, according to coverage in both the Torch and the Observer, This wouldn't necessarily get the reaction that Gabe hoped for.


“The announcement didn’t get a huge pop from the fans in attendance, but his appearance is likely to draw a new group of veteran fans who maybe otherwise wouldn’t attend a live ROH event or purchase an ROH tape. It’s a marketing strategy ROH often uses where they bring in a known draw among a core group of fans, hoping to hook them on the rest of the product in the process.” Gabe had actually used this strategy with the very show the announcement was being made on, as Long Island local Mick Foley would appear, getting involved in CM Punk’s storyline. You could conceivably guess that there may have been more casual fans than normal in, especially for the promotions first time in the area, supported by the following show on the night after. “The reaction was huge the next night in Manhattan for the same announcement. Right now Kobashi is only booked on 10/1, but they are working on a second date for him.”


In the Observer Dave Meltzer would write that the entire show, not just the Kobashi reveal would suffer from a lower than expected crowd reaction. “The Lake Grove show was said to be a disappointment as far as crowd heat, but the crowd of 750 was really strong and it was attributed to doing a lot of angle stuff for casual fans who didn’t know the storylines and weren’t internet fans, which explains the totally different Kobashi reactions.”


July 23rd The Homecoming (Philadelphia announced)

The next time there would be any new developments on Kobashi would be a couple of weeks later at their next show in Philadelphia. On this night it would be announced that the second date that ROH were trying to add had been finalized, and so he would also be wrestling on October 2nd. This announcement would lead to some questionable booking, and some even more questionable reasoning from Gabe that were printed in the August 1st Observer.


From the National Guard Armory in Philadelphia, the company would present The Homecoming, where in the main event for the ROH World title, CM Punk would go to a sixty minute draw with Christopher Daniels, and we all know how much wrestling fans love time limit draws. Besides this, many fans were left unhappy with the sheer number of heel wins on the night. Gabe, it seems, felt he could get away with this just the once for a very special reason, Kenta Kobashi was now booked for the next show in Philadelphia. “Gabe Sapolsky felt they needed the screwjobs to get some heels over and felt Philadelphia was an okay place to do it, because Kenta Kobashi is on the next show, so he figured everyone would come back.” While it’s generally not considered good booking practice to annoy your fans knowing they will come back anyway, at least he did this just for the one show, and not let's say for about ten years.


As we got into August, Gabe was openly considering potential opponents for Kobashi. While Samoa Joe was the choice of many, Gabe also seemed to be considering Low Ki for the second match, but this wasn’t going to come without some difficulties. There were some merits to picking Low Ki, “there would be no issues as to finish, since both work for NOAH and Low Ki isn’t going to refuse a job for Kobashi.” While the two had met in three separate tag team matches that same year, a singles match between the two would have been more difficult to book, “because of the size difference making it hard to work a match, in the sense they can work together, but in NOAH, Kobashi is a legend and Low Ki is just a junior heavyweight undercard guy, so how much can he give him? In a tag, they can work it better, with the idea of a heavyweight and a junior heavyweight on each team.”


Possibly less so today than back then, given how many wrestlers we see move up into the heavyweight ranks, there was a perception between the two divisions that a heavyweight would fair better against a junior, therefore it might make the match less appealing or competitive. Because of this and other issues around the idea of Kobashi losing, Dave calls a tag match with Joe possibly involved “an easier political deal.” Gabe also explains that having Kobashi work two singles matches with high expectations on them would also have been a mistake. Ultimately, the idea of a Kenta vs Low-Ki singles match would be nixed, and a tag team match was considered the better option. *clip*


From the time of the initial announcement, there was already a lot of talk about who Kobashi would wrestle when he arrived in New York. Even at this point, “There is a push for Kobashi’s opponent to be Samoa Joe.” More opponents were discussed, but Joe was the one person that everyone seemed to come back to. Not a lot would come out officially though, and Gabe said years later that this was because the deal came extremely close to falling through several times. *clip*


Match announced

On August 29th 2005, Kenta Kobashi’s matches for Ring of Honor would finally be announced. On October 1st in New York he would face Samoa Joe, and on the next night in Philadelphia, he would team up with Homicide against Samoa Joe and Low-Ki. We’ll get back to the tag match in a minute because there’s a lot going on there, but the singles match with Joe was considered something of a dream match.


By mid 2005, Samoa Joe was six years into his career and twenty six years old. Despite this he was already something of a legend to ROH fans, having already held the Ring of Honor championship for nineteen months, a record unbroken to this day. Much like Kenta Kobashi, he too was racking up classic matches, only his list was far shorter so far.


While already respected by ROH fans, by mid-2005 he was also just starting to make a name for himself in TNA. On June 19th at Slammiversary, Joe made a very impressive debut, beginning a seventeen month undefeated streak that would eventually end when Kurt Angle arrived in the promotion. At the same time, much like Kobashi, Joe had been racking up highly regarded matches, even some that are still talked about today. On September 11th 2005, he would be one third of a famous triple threat match at Unbreakable against AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels. For eighteen years, this would be the only five star match that TNA ever promoted, until Bound for Glory in 2023.


Despite the eleven year experience difference, Joe and Kobashi were both collecting five star match ratings. I promise that star ratings don't normally get a lot of attention on this channel, but just bear with me for a minute. Between the years 2003 to 2006, Dave Meltzer awarded five five star ratings, and every one of those matches included either Joe or Kobashi. By the time of their match in October 2005, Kobashi had previously earned seventeen five stars, while Samoa Joe had just two. Very soon they would both have one more.


Ending


Odds are that if you’re watching this channel you know all about the classic match that would take place in the Grand Ballroom of the New Yorker Hotel. You’ve likely even seen it for yourself, from Kobashi breaking his usually stoic demeanour at the sound of the fans cheering loudly for him, to Joe’s chest ending up looking like something out of a horror film. What if Kobashi had done more in the US though? What if he had appeared for TNA, if he looked like a fish out of water at ROH, imagine what he would have looked like in the Impact Zone competing in the X-Division? What if he’d gone on a tour of the indies, facing spirit squad members and other freshly ex-WWE talents of the time. While it’s an interesting thing to guess about, it’s likely for the best that the ROH matches stand out, that the US matches Kobashi had remain few and special. Still, I wouldn't have minded seeing a really weird match somewhere though.





Sources:

WON July 4th Coming over for Harley Race/TNA https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/july-4-2005-observer-newsletter-wwe-completes-draft-lottery-brock/

WON Sep 5th 05 Iron closes https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/september-5-2005-observer-newsletter-pride-final-conflict-recap-chris/

WWE article about Harley’s camp https://www.wwe.com/inside/news/archive/race1

Harley and noah https://www.google.com/amp/s/slamwrestling.net/index.php/2008/08/22/race-noah-camp-a-unique-opportunity/amp/

WON July 18th Booking first announced - Harley Race, TNA and FIP https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/july-18-2005-wrestling-observer-newsletter-death-shinya-hashimoto-wwe/


Timeline

PW Torch July 23rd 2005 - Official announcement https://www.pwtorch.com/artman2/members/uploads/2/871TorchNewsletterPDF.pdf

WON Aug 1st Gabe not concerned with upsetting fans as they will come back for Kobashi next time https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/august-1-2005-obsever-newsletter-muhammad-hassan-character-banned-upn/

WON Aug 8th Gabe not announcing opponents for a while - Low Ki https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/august-8-2005-observer-newsletter-bret-hart-meet-wwe-over-dvd-business/

WON Aug 29 Match announced - Low Ki https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/august-29-2005-observer-newsletter-summerslam-recap-fedor-vs-mirko-cro/

FFD Sep 5th Match Announced - tag confusing https://members.f4wonline.com/newsletter-search?post_date=08012005+09012005

WON Sep 21 Advertised for Japanese TV https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/september-21-2005-observer-newsletter-spike-wwe-counterprogram-one/

Wade Chism interview https://missouriwrestlingrevival.com/2011/05/29/10-quick-hits-from-former-wlw-champion-wild-wade-chism/

WON Sep 26 Johnny Ace meeting Kobashi https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/september-26-2005-observer-newsletter-wwe-unforgiven-stacked-raw/

The History of Wrestling at the Elks Lodge, Queens NY

 

This might be the most ‘old man’ thing I’ve said on this channel, but I really appreciate an interesting looking venue. ECW ran quite a few of these, making a lot of their shows look unique and interesting. Promotions today hold events in all manner of places, from First Wrestling having their annual event in the Mall of America, to GCW’s Ukrainian Culture Center. These venues help to set promotions apart, and create an interesting atmosphere. Undoubtedly the one of the most interesting that I’ve ever seen was an Aztec inspired theatre in of all places, Queens New York. It’s still there to this day, though rarely used for wrestling.




In this video, we’ll look at the history of the Elks Lodge in Queens. We’ll start with before ECW, then we’ll look at the venue itself, some highlights of the ECW years, and it’s life post 2000.




Before arriving in the Elks Lodge, ECW’s previous New York venue was the Lost Battalion Hall, which is about a mile down the road. According to reports, the capacity seems to have been anywhere up to twelve hundred for the early shows there in 1995. That’s more than the Elks Lodge held, which appears to be around nine hundred. Every source gives a different number, and we’ll get to the reason for that in a little while. ECW moving from the Lost Battalion Hall to the Elks Lodge could well have come down to money. Presumably the Elks was cheaper if it held less fans. It could have also been because Paul Heyman seemed to really like the place, christening it the “Madhouse of Extreme”. When ECW was about to begin their ill fated run on TNN, Paul seemed to want to make sure against the network’s wishes, that the Madhouse would be the site of the first set of tapings for the new show. On September 8th 2013, at a WWE live event at the Barclays center in Brooklyn, Paul Heyman, standing next to Curtis Axel, would dismiss the three year old arena, which reportedly cost a billion dollars to build. He would tell the live crowd that it was “a dump compared to an Elks Lodge in Queens,” nearly thirteen years after he would have last set foot there.




One more idea, and this is just me speculating, is that it could also have come down to the building being under the New York City department of Parks and Rec, which I bet isn't as fun as it looks on TV. While ECW always had an edge to it, I doubt a government building and flaming tables would have gone down too well.




Building




Before we get to the Elks Lodge’s history with wrestling, a little background on the building itself. To use it’s proper name, Elks Lodge number 878 had long since stopped being a member-only establishment by the time ECW arrived. The main part of the building was put up for sale by the Elks in 1995, and would eventually be used as a Church. More on that later as it almost stopped shows taking place there several times. The most distinctive part of the venue is the amazing Aztec inspired carvings that surround the stage, and wrap around the balcony. If only Lucha Underground could have been filmed there before the once colourful theater was painted a much more dull colour. According to an article published in 2011 for Scouting New York .com, this was done by the current owners to make the imagery a little less intimidating. They used a different word.




In the 2013 documentary Barbed Wire City, ECW fan and attendee of the Elks Lodge Tony Lewis provided a tour of the venue outside and in, with some rather unique insights. He starts by showing us a fire escape, and tells us that the majority of the ring had to be carried two floors up the outside of the building, as this is where the lower level of the theater was. When he shows us the inside, he points out a window that the ring parts would have to be pushed through. If you, like I have, have ever watched a show from the Elks Lodge and wondered how they fit the reported attendance figures of up to a thousand fans into the small looking venue, the simplest answer is sometimes the best. Tony tells us that a plaque used to be up on the wall telling that the max capacity for the theater was six hundred and fifty three, and ECW would break this regularly with complete disregard. I’ll not tell you everything that Tony shares, and I’ll also include a link to the full segment in the description because it’s worth a watch. One final thing I will add is about a local legend that the Elks Lodge could call its own. Their version of the Straw hat guy. In fact, take it away Tony. *clip*




By the time ECW started putting on shows there, wrestling had already been promoted in the Elks Lodge before. The Pro Wrestling Torch lists an event from December 1996 for a promotion called Ultimate Championship Wrestling, a few months before ECW first ran there. The most notable names that were on this card were ECW talent Tommy Cairo, and ex-WWF stars Jim Neidhart, and in the main event Chris Chavis without the Tatanka gimmick, who beat King Kong Bundy by count out. Not a five count out I assume. Going even further back, in the Wrestling Observer there's evidence of a promotion called Universal Wrestling Superstars running there in ‘92. This card advertised Jimmy Snuka against Demolition Ax, just Ax mind, and SD Jones, whose career was winding down at this point. UWS ran the New York and New Jersey area starting in the late 80’s. According to a site that specialises in documenting Wrestling from New York, their last event in Queens was the card the Observer referenced in ‘92, but the promotion would keep going elsewhere until 1997, and right to the end they would continue to feature local talent on the undercard and former WWF stars on top. Their last main event would be Jimmy Snuka vs Typhoon.




1997




So now we get to ECW’s time in the Elks Lodge. Overall there are nineteen events, some TV tapings and others house shows that took place there. This isn’t going to be a comprehensive deep dive because we’d be here for hours. I will stop off at everything of note that happened in relation to the venue. On April 5th 1997, ECW ran their first event at the Madhouse. The first thing to note about this event is that it took place just eight days before Barely Legal, the company’s first pay per view and a huge milestone for the company. Despite not being an official TV taping and only being filmed by the fan cam, footage would air on the last episode of Hardcore TV before the pay per view, making this the first time the Elks Lodge appeared on televised wrestling show.




They would show part of a match between Rob Van Dam and Pitbull #2, where Van Dam hit a dive and unintentionally clocked Pitbull One, who medics rushed to in case he had reinjured his neck. Shane Douglas would attack him, which was part of the final build towards him versus Pitbull Two at Barely Legal.




Also on the episode, ECW would air a three team tag title match featuring the Gangstas, and two teams who would meet again on the pay per view, the Dudley Boyz and the Eliminators. In this match New Jack would perform a balcony dive, on the very first show in the building mind. These two segments would be the only parts of the show that would ever air on Hardcore TV.

After the first show at the Madhouse, Paul Heyman would gush about the night in an interview with the Torch “In my opinion we had our best spot show, if not our best house show, ever in Queens on Saturday night. The audience was so into the show. It was one of our best shows.” Ye alright Paul, you’re sounding a bit like another promoter.




While the fans at the Elks Lodge were getting to see title matches and TV episodes being taped at future shows, it would be a bit longer before they would actually see a championship change hands. On October 16th, which would again be a TV taping, Bam Bam Bigelow would defeat Shane Douglas for the ECW World title. In all of the events that ECW would have at the Elks, this would be the one and only World title change, though Shane would win his title back a month later at the November to Remember pay per view. Hardcore TV would show future world title changes, but this would be the last one to take place specifically to air on the show, with many after taking place on pay per view, and a couple happening on TNN. You’d have to look to the WWE ECW days to find the next time the ECW World title changed hands with so few viewers watching, mainly because half the crowd had their backs turned.




The final noteworthy event from 1997 came on December 26th, which could have become an annual tradition for ECW, as they held an event there on the same night in ‘98 too. This show starts off unlike regular ECW shows, in that it featured a match between two New Japan wrestlers. The Great Sasuke, who had wrestled for ECW earlier in the year including at Barely Legal, would face Tiger Mask IV, who along with the next night in New Jersey was making his only two appearances for the company. The two get off to a slow start and the crowd begins to boo, even calling out “bullshit,” and some quite offensive against the Japanese chants as the two exchange holds on the mat. While the Torch says nothing about this match, Wade Keller notes that when the two had a rematch on the following night, “The crowd chanted “boring” and “this match sucks” early on.” The only match of the night that would be taped for television would air on January 5th, and it would be an eight man tag team match that played on the ECW vs WWF feud that had been taking place for months. The ECW team of Taz, Sandman, Tommy Dreamer and Al Snow would defeat the WWF team of Doug Furnas, Phil Lafon, Rob Van Dam and Sabu. I promise it makes more sense in the context of the feud why Sabu was on the WWF team, and I am oversimplifying it a bit. Al Snow, who was actually a WWF signed wrestler who had been sent to ECW and developed his new character there, would get the win by roll up on Doug Furnas, and by Summer would be back on Raw, bringing Head with him. The multi person tag match where the good guys triumph would become something of a tradition, as the next year New Jack, Balls Mahoney and Axl Rotten would best the Dudley Boyz to send the crowd home happy.




1998




After a few months away, ECW would return to the Madhouse on March 13th, with an event that the Observer noted had been “sold out several days ahead of time.” Dave makes note there that the capacity is 800, but in the following week’s issue lists a thousand as the attendance. Either Paul is inflating the numbers, or the fire code took a pounding on this night. While the March event was another house show, ECW’s next show at the Elks Lodge is one of the more important ones, as a few memorable moments took place. It is also known for having one of the most distinctive names of any ECW show. On May 14th ‘98, the promotion presented ‘It Ain’t Seinfeld,’ named as such because on the same night, the final episode of Seinfeld was airing. This is completely irrelevant, but as a kid growing up in the UK, we didn’t have Seinfeld, Jerry or his Sitcom, and so for years I had no fucking idea what that name even meant. I guess you could say, Hey whats the deal? Sorry.




This show is notable for more than just it’s name though, as Taz came to the ring with a bag in his hand. He would explain that he felt that the World champion Shane Douglas had been ducking him, and that a man from Pittsburgh could never beat a man from Brooklyn anyway. He presents to the world his own custom made championship, first calling it the Brooklyn world belt, then the name it would be better known as, the FTW title. On this occasion, FTW did not mean ‘for the win’ as it might today. It stood for “fuck the world,” three words that Taz’ on screen persona embodied. In January ‘99 at Guilty as Charged, Taz would defeat Shane for the real ECW World title, and the FTW belt felt like a way of keeping that from happening until the time was right. Douglas would remain champion throughout the whole of ‘98, and would almost seem a bit lost without it.




One more thing of note that occurred on this night, was a pretty epic moment that I’m sure the management of the Elks Lodge weren’t thrilled by. That said, the first show there did have a New Jack balcony dive. The whole ‘98 version of the Dudley Boyz, as well as their manager Joel Gertner would come to the ring to what I believe would be called nuclear heat. The crowd viciously boo’s as the Dudley Boys spit venom right back, paying specific attention to one individual they picked out on the balcony. Perhaps not expecting anything to come of this, the Dudley clan attempted to goad the fan into climbing down the balcony, and getting in the ring. They even promised that they would make sure that he would not be kicked out or worse. These were the days when a fan climbed in the ring, they would get whatever the wrestler who happened to be in there felt they deserved. The tye-dyed trolls moved on with their promo, but after a few minutes, the fan would descend from the balcony, and make his way towards the guard rail. Thankfully, security would get to him before anything else could happen, and the Dudleys would continue on with their planned promo. This does show though, just how incensed the fans could get while being taunted by the Dudleys. As best I can tell from the newsletters at the time, nothing seemed to come of this, and the Elks clearly didn’t mind, or care, that a fan had dropped from the balcony to try and get in the ring.




In August, ECW would, through a situation out of their control, lose their television presence in New York City, Philadelphia and Atlanta, the first two being very important markets for the company. While they were able to get new airings in the latter two, New York proved to be much more difficult. ECW would end up going months without any television in New York. Despite this, ECW continued to run shows in NYC, and in September at the Madhouse, they would come up with a very expensive, and frankly insane sounding way of keeping fans invested. “On the 9/17 Queens show, as the crowd of about 800 left the building, Paul Heyman and Tommy Dreamer were at the exits giving everyone videotapes of the past three television shows since ECW has been off TV in the New York market and basically Heyman wanted the loyal New York fans to see the recent TV shows. The goodwill gesture cost in total about $4,100 between the cost of the tapes and the dubbing and transporting about 1,000 tapes to the Arena.”




As I’m sure you can probably imagine given the time and cost it took, ECW only did this once, leaving their New York fans without access to their television at their next show in November. “ECW didn’t pass out tapes of the TV show to all the fans at the Queens show as they had promised the previous show they’d do as long as they didn’t have New York TV, claiming a problem with the fire marshall, but did take everyone’s name and promised to mail them the last four weeks worth of television shows.”




Before we leave 1998, there was one more event at the Elks Lodge that received some attention from the newsletters, though it wasn't promoted by ECW. It is as best I can tell, the first non-ECW show to take place at the Elks Lodge while the promotion was running shows there. On October 10th, the Long Island Wrestling Federation would promote a card held in the memory of the Junkyard Dog, who had passed away in June ‘98. The show would include many ex-WWF talents, such as Tito Santana, Demolition Ax, again without Smash, Jimmy Snuka and more. What's strange though, is seeing these names alongside some of the future stars of the 2000’s indie scene, most notably Homicide and Low-Ki. More on them later. A couple of ECW names also worked the show, including Spanish Angel and Skull Von Krush, who would be part of the Baldies group later on. LIWF would run one more event at the Elks during ECW’s time there in early ‘99, but ECW soon wouldn’t be running there either.




1999




As we get to 1999, ECW would run four times at the Madhouse, but a big problem was emerging. If you looked purely at ticket sales, which are usually one of a wrestling promotions most important revenue streams, you’d be forgiven for thinking that everything was fine, but ECW’s money problems were still growing. Cheques were bouncing, talent were being owed more and more, and Paul Heyman was having to look for deals that might save the company. By this point ECW had sold out the Elks Lodge many times in a row, and continued to through the upcoming year, but if this wasn’t making enough money for the company, it raised the question of should they be running the smaller venues anymore?




On the weekend of ECW’s first Elks lodge show of the year, they sold out an eleven hundred capacity show in Freeport New York on the Friday, a thousand in the Madhouse on Saturday, and three thousand on Sunday in Poughkeepsie. The Observer would make an interesting comment about this. “There is some question as to whether or not the full houses in small venues can pay the enormous television bills the company has, since it buys time in most major markets it plays. The estimated $250,000 per year bill for MSG cable, for example, can hardly be made up running 1,000-seat buildings in the New York market.” Dave seems to be specifically talking about the Elks Lodge without ever naming it. “Heyman has steadfastly run shows that are admitted money losers because the television looks good, particularly from New York, and being able to pack houses rather than risk moving to larger buildings and potentially not selling out.”




As far as the content of the show, the fans were treated to some stellar wrestling and a surprising twist. Crossing the Line on February 12th would include one of the many singles matches between Yoshihiro Tajiri and Super Crazy, who had quick become intense rivals since Tajiri’s debut in December. The main event of the night saw another famous ECW rivalry revisited, as Rob Van Dam would defend the Television title against Jerry Lynn. The two would a month later meet again at Living Dangerously in what might be their most famous match, so to see it in a much more intimate setting must have felt special.




This night was also the setting for a match that never was, which turned into a major storyline. Originally, the Dudleys were slated to have a dream match of sorts with the Public Enemy, which would have been billed as ECW’s past greatest tag team against their present greatest. When asked about his opinion of the Public Enemy by the Torch, Paul Heyman responded “They should’ve showed up in Queens to do the favor for the Dudleys.” In place of the match that might have taken place, it looked like a different tag team from the early days of ECW were going to clash with the Dudleys, as Mustafa would return to the company to stand along side New Jack, who was already feuding with them. However, Mustafa would actually turn on his former partner, setting up a match between he and New Jack at Living Dangerously.




On April 24th the company would return to New York, but the most interesting thing about this show was what was going on backstage, as Paul Heyman would receive some unexpected visitors backstage, who were after money owed to them. “Tommy Rogers and Sid, who were both working the weekend in the area for Mike O’Brien’s North East Wrestling, showed up at the 4/24 Queens shows to get settled on previously bounced checks. Sid was owed $6,000 and Rogers a much lesser amount and both were paid off although there ended up being a scene between Rogers and Paul Heyman over it.” Sid would end up only making two more appearances for ECW before signing with WCW, but it’s doubtful that those would have happened had Paul not paid him on this night.




Despite all of the money problems, there were opportunities coming that Paul Heyman hoped would help turn things around. The biggest of these was the TNN deal, which after months of negotiations, Heyman would land in June. Paul would waste little time announcing the deal to the world, and he would do so in the middle of the ring, at the Madhouse on July 3rd. A week before this at the ECW arena, Paul would hold a meeting with the wrestlers, hoping to unify them ahead of the announcement, and attempting to lift their spirits. “He asked that they be a “team” and support the company because the next few months would be an exciting period of growth with everyone soon thereafter getting rewarded for their patience.” Paul was very much insistent that the good times were coming, telling the Torch in an interview in July that ECW was never going to go out of business no matter how bleak things had looked from the outside.




It seems though, that whether ECW planned on addressing the size of it’s venues or not, they might have had to leave the Elks Lodge not by choice. The first TNN taping, which would take place from the Madhouse on August 26th was set by the venue itself to be the final wrestling event to take place there. The show is also known under the name ‘Last Night at the Madhouse’ for this reason. It seems though, that for at least for a while this may not have been the case. “The Queens show was scheduled to be the final show in the Moose Lodge as it is being converted into a church. However, the building’s management (who are said to be usually stuffy and nonchalant) got caught up in the emotion of the evening and decided to book a final show at the building on Dec. 18. Heyman says the show will not be a TV taping because he wants it to be more of an intimate night for the Queens fans, whom he is said to consider among the best in wrestling.” This December show is never again mentioned in the Torch or Observer, and on the date that the event was pencilled in for ECW would actually run a show in Chattanooga, as part of a three show tour of Tennessee.




Still, at the time that this show was being booked, ECW thought it was the last night at the Madhouse, and so Paul booked a memorable show. August 26th 1999 was to be the last night in the company for Bubba Ray and D-Von Dudley, who won the tag team titles from Balls Mahoney and Spike Dudley, threatening to take them to WWF. Thankfully this wouldn't happen, as the Dudley’s would lose the titles later in the night to Tommy Dreamer, and a returning hero. Following a very public walk out from WCW, former ECW World champion Raven would make his surprise return much earlier than expected, given that he had only walked on a WCW Nitro taping on August 23rd, just days before this event. At some point in the night, the Torch says that Heyman came to the ring to address the fans about the TNN debut. “A few fans chanted “Raven” and Heyman told them, “You’ll get Raven in 91 days””. In a move that would shock the Madhouse fans, Raven would enter through the crowd, drop Bubba with a DDT, and pin him to win the tag team titles with Dreamer, his hated rival. Tommy would look at Raven like he had seen a ghost, and he would spend the next few weeks reckoning with the idea that his biggest rival was back.




The next few times ECW would run TV tapings in New York, it would be in much larger venues than the Elks lodge, in Buffalo and White Plains. It’s possible to say then that ECW had, at least for the time being, outgrown the small Queens venue. Despite this, ECW would eventually return to the Madhouse one final time, under very different circumstances.




2000




By November of 2000, ECW was in a much rougher shape. TNN was gone, and the company would be a few months from the end. ECW was a few weeks away from a new pay per view event they had added to their calendar, called Massacre on 34th Street. Because of several cancelled shows, there was worry that they might not have enough footage in the can to get them to the event. As a result, according to the Observer “there was work done to try and do a last-minute booking of the Elks Lodge in Queens, NY, where ECW used to tape hot TV’s, because it’s only an 800-seat arena that ECW can fill with a week of publicity, for sometime over Thanksgiving weekend to shoot some new angles for the PPV.” This event would end up not taking place, “because there wasn’t enough time to finalize the deal and get the publicity out on television. They still may add a date in that building before the end of the year with the idea of making it an extra special house show and charging a high ticket price for the event.” This one would end up happening, with some very special guests. Bubba Ray and D-Von Dudley would make one final appearance for ECW at the same venue that they left in.




In early December, the Observer would report on cancelled events in Texas. This meant that after the December 3rd pay per view, the next ECW event would be on the 15th in the Elks Lodge. The Madhouse show was “a high ticket price event in order to try and catch up on bills, which was originally 12/21 but moved up one week because ECW would have had nothing for TV on 12/22.” Unfortunately for ECW though, the show wouldn’t draw as much money as the company needed it to. “while it sold out the 800 seats, (the show) failed to overflow with standing room as it usually did in the past, with tickets jacked up to $40 and $60.”




But what happened on the card itself? “The show was built around the return of the Dudleys, who worked the main event teaming with Tommy Dreamer over Simon Diamond & Swinger & Anderson and were clearly the stars of the show by leaps and bounds over the regulars.” While this was sure to get a reaction from the fans at the Madhouse, not everyone was happy, as “many were upset regarding the Dudleys not selling anything for the ECW guys, in particular Buh Buh not putting over the C.W. Anderson left hand which they push on television.”




Leading up to the night, ECW had been promoting another surprise star, who would turn out to be Taz, who would help the tag team champions Danny Doring and Roadkill. This may sound like an odd pairing, but Doring and Roadkill were actually proteges of Taz, two of the few graduates of the House of Hardcore training school. This return by Taz seems to have been received much better. “Tazz tried to give them a rub afterwards and apparently did a great job with the interview, doing his old catch phrase with a twist, “Beat them if you can, survive if they let you.””




2001

With ECW not long for the world, the December 15th show marks a sort of end of an era. It doesn’t mean however that wrestling stopped at the Elks Lodge though, nor was it the end for ECW wrestlers appearing there. In February 2001, another promotion would swoop in to take their place. “Chris Candido, Kash, Tajiri, Baldies, Mahoney and Whipwreck as well as Electra and Missy Hyatt all worked the 1/26 show for Ultimate Championship Wrestling in Queens at the Elks Lodge, the site of numerous ECW TV tapings, drawing about 400 fans.” The Observer in December notes that this is a new promotion holding their first show, and not the same Ultimate Wrestling Superstars that I mentioned earlier.




As well as the former ECW talent they booked, they also included several talents who would become more prominent names in the 2000’s. The Amazing Red, Homicide, Low-Ki and the SAT who would all work for Ring of Honor when that got started, would mix with half of the ECW roster. The other notable thing about UCW is that their shows appear to be marathons. This card from June of 2001 has fifteen matches on it, including a one night tournament and a battle royal. In September, UCW would run a free show at the Elks Lodge, and apparently expected it to be rammed with people, this wouldn’t be the case though. “According to those there, because it was free, it would have been expected to be a packed house, but only drew about 400 people. Low Ki and Red apparently tore down the house with a **** calibre match.”




At first there was annoyingly little information about Ultimate Championship Wrestling out there, not even a logo, and no listed events beyond this free event in late 2001. I noticed though, that their shows would include title defenses for Impact Championship Wrestling, which would continue to run the Elks Lodge until 2015, eventually becoming ICW No Holds Barred, which is still running today.




Another notable company that would begin to run in the Elks was USA Pro Wrestling, which began in New Jersey in ‘96, and first ran the former Madhouse in 2000. Promoted until 2021 by former wrestler Frank Goodman, USA pro appears to bridge a gap between being one of those companies that I talked about earlier, main evented by 80’s WWF stars, to later booking ex-ECW guys as well as indie talent. According to this note from the Observer, they were still booking Snuka vs Bundy as late as 2000. Can you imagine?




In 2003, Frank Goodman’s USA Pro would actually have a hand in another company being able to run their first ever show in New York. That company is known as Ring of Honor. There have been a few cases over the years of promotions needing to co-promote with a company that already has a license to promote in New York. Perhaps most famously, when AAA planned to run Madison Square Garden they had to co-promoted with Impact, and New Japan did with Ring of Honor for their MSG show. In this case, ROH co-promoted using Frank Goodman’s license. It was first reported in November 2002 in the Observer that ROH “will debut in New York at the Elks Lodge in Queens on 2/8 in a joint promotion with Frank Goodman’s USA Pro Wrestling (which, since it’ll be their license, will be the promotion of record).”




Ring of Honor, with the help of USA Pro, would hold their one year anniversary event at the Elks Lodge, the only ROH show that would ever be held there. This could potentially be because a storyline riot that would get a bit out of control would happen half way through the show, and that not being a great look for a building predominantly used as a church by this point. Another potential reason for no return date is that after years of threatening “The Elks Lodge in Queens, which had been rumored for years, dating back to the ECW days, to be shutting down wrestling, is going to do so in September.” While a little later than planned, USA Pro Wrestling would host the apparent last show at the Elks Lodge, titled “End of an Era.” The fifteen match card included a mix of up and coming indie talent and grizzled ECW veterans. From Low-Ki versus Sonjay Dutt to Shane Douglas versus the Sandman and a marathon show in between. In the main event, Raven would defend the USA Pro heavyweight title against Al Snow in a match that would last forty-five minutes. Can you imagine anything more threatening sounding than an almost hour long Al Snow match on a fifteen bout card? Before you say a half hour video on this channel, ye probably.




Ending




This is the third video that I’ve made for this channel about a former ECW venue, and it’s the only one that is still to this day predominantly known as theirs, approaching twenty five years since the company closed its doors. Unlike the Hammerstein Ballroom and the 2300 arena which have hosted many promotions since, the Madhouse of Extreme has stayed at the indie level when it has hosted wrestling. This is in part due to the new ownership, but the size of the venue doesn’t help either. Or that fire escape.




Early on in my reading for this video, I found this quote from an Observer that stuck with me about the Elks Lodge. It perhaps explains why major promotions never seem to run there, not since ECW at least. “One of ECW’s problems is that Heyman has often presented the product in buildings for atmosphere, such as the ECW Arena, or the Elks Lodge in Queens, but that even with a full house, the show itself ends up being a money loser.”




For better or worse, and I think history will probably say for worse, Paul Heyman had an interesting philosophy when it came to how he chose his venues. “Heyman, whose background from the night club business before wrestling taught him it’s better for the illusion of the club to pack a small hall, than to draw twice as many people in a three times as large building, taking in more money, but having empty seats give the impression it’s not a hot product.” This is the mentality of someone who wants to deliver the perception of a really hot product. One that fans are desperate to get through the door for, but not necessarily one that will sell enough tickets to sustain itself. Herein lies the problem with ECW running the smaller venues. Had they lived into the 2000’s, who knows where they would have found, or what ways they would have found, to draw bigger crowds?






Sources:

Intro

Paul Heyman on the building in 2013 https://vip.pwtorch.com/2023/09/11/10-yrs-ago-wwe-live-event-results-9-8-2013-shield-vs-usos-orton-vs-daniel-bryan-plus-punk-brie-bella-dean-ambrose-rvd-natalya-sami-drew-more/

Aztec theater https://www.scoutingny.com/the-incredible-aztec-theater-hidden-in-queens/

Barbed Wire City, 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQjvW_w8Q_k (Link to section used)

PWT Jan 18th 97 - Wrestling had already been happening there https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/01/07/vip-1997-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-423-jan-18-1997-wwf-shotgun-saturday-night-syndicated-program-debuts-part-two-of-joey-styles-torch-talk-more/

WON July 20th 92 - Earliest mention in Observer https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/july-20-1992-observer-newsletter-vader-makes-title-history-title-belt/

New York Pro Wrestling Results https://www.nyprowrestling.com/results/




1997

PWT April 12th - Paul on first show https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/04/02/vip-1997-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-435-apr-12-1997-ecws-ppv-debut-preview-paul-heyman-interview-wcw-spring-stampede-ppv-more/

PWT Jan 3 98 Tiger Mask vs Sasuke https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/12/26/vip-1998-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-473-january-3-1998-in-depth-starrcade-report-including-sting-capturing-wcw-title-from-hogan-plus-ratings-roundtable-reviews-and-more/




1998

WON March 16th 98 Sold out https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/march-16-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wcw-turmoil-talentnew/

WON March 23rd attendance number, Al Snow notes https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/march-23-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wcw-turmoil-ufc-16-tons/

WON July 6th 98 July sell out https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/july-6-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-king-ring/

WON Aug 3rd 98 losing New York https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/august-3-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-more-leno-and-wcw-wwf/

WON Sept 28th 98 Tapes https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/september-28-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-raw-overtakes-nitro/

WON Oct 12th 98 New York market https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/october-12-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-monday-night-war-ratings/

WON Dec 28th 98 New faces https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-28-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-bischoff-gets-historic/

WON Oct 19th 98 Long Island Wrestling Federation JYD show https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/october-19-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-pride-4-results-brian/

JYD show card https://www.nyprowrestling.com/results/1990s/1998.html




1999

WON Feb 22nd 99 Crossing the Line, money problems https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/february-22-1999-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ecw-having-financial/

PWT July 3rd Talent meeting ahead of TNN https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/06/29/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-555-july-3-1999-keller-dissects-hogans-interview-on-larry-king-live-cover-story-details-wwf-embarrassing-wcw-in-its-home-market-cover-sidebar/

PWT July 17th heyman interview post TNN deal https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/07/13/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-557-july-17-1999-cover-story-on-jesse-venturas-controversial-decision-to-be-guest-celebrity-at-summerslam-paul-heyman-interview-in-depth-cove/

WON August 30th 1999 Raven https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/august-30-1999-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-summerslam-review/

PWT Sept 4th Elks being the real first TNN taping, Raven return and Public Enemy comment https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/08/31/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-564-september-4-1999-cover-story-detailing-wwfs-help-getting-steroid-doctor-suspended-cover-sidebar-looks-at-venturas-problems-with-media-co/

PWT September 4th End for the building https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/08/31/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-564-september-4-1999-cover-story-detailing-wwfs-help-getting-steroid-doctor-suspended-cover-sidebar-looks-at-venturas-problems-with-media-co/




2000

WON Nov 20th 2000 Potentially used one last time in Nov 2000 https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-20-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-shinya-hashimoto-fired/

WON Nov 27th 2000 more on above

https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-27-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-survivor-series-review/

WON Dec 4th 00 One last show in December - Dudleys https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-4-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ecw-turmoil-wcw-mayhem/

WON Dec 25th 00 Show didn’t do well https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-25-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-blue-demon-passes-away/




2001

WON Feb 5th 01 NAPTE - UCW runs Elks

https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/february-5-2001-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-signs-justin/

WON Dec 18th 00 - Another Ultimate in 2001 https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-18-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-armageddon-reviewed/

UCW Results https://www.nyprowrestling.com/results/2000s/2001.html

WON Sept 25th 01 Free show doesn’t do well https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/september-25-2001-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ufc-reenters-ppv/

WON May 8th 00 USA Pro Wrestling Frank Goodman https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/may-8-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-backlash-review-sakuraba/

WON Nov 25th 02 ROH First noted - Fank Goodmans USA-PW https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-25-2002-observer-newsletter-survivor-series-review-more-97565/

WON June 9th 03 Venue apparently closing again https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/june-9-2003-observer-newsletter-career-and-death-freddie-blassie-97627/

WON Nov 17th 03 Last show there advertised https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-17-2003-observer-newsletter-bob-sapp-vs-akebono-death-crash/




Ending

Venue Money loser https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/october-9-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wcw-sale-rumors-rock/

WON Feb 22nd 99 nightclub quote

https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/february-22-1999-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ecw-having-financial/