This might be the most ‘old man’ thing I’ve said on this channel, but I really appreciate an interesting looking venue. ECW ran quite a few of these, making a lot of their shows look unique and interesting. Promotions today hold events in all manner of places, from First Wrestling having their annual event in the Mall of America, to GCW’s Ukrainian Culture Center. These venues help to set promotions apart, and create an interesting atmosphere. Undoubtedly the one of the most interesting that I’ve ever seen was an Aztec inspired theatre in of all places, Queens New York. It’s still there to this day, though rarely used for wrestling.
In this video, we’ll look at the history of the Elks Lodge in Queens. We’ll start with before ECW, then we’ll look at the venue itself, some highlights of the ECW years, and it’s life post 2000.
Before arriving in the Elks Lodge, ECW’s previous New York venue was the Lost Battalion Hall, which is about a mile down the road. According to reports, the capacity seems to have been anywhere up to twelve hundred for the early shows there in 1995. That’s more than the Elks Lodge held, which appears to be around nine hundred. Every source gives a different number, and we’ll get to the reason for that in a little while. ECW moving from the Lost Battalion Hall to the Elks Lodge could well have come down to money. Presumably the Elks was cheaper if it held less fans. It could have also been because Paul Heyman seemed to really like the place, christening it the “Madhouse of Extreme”. When ECW was about to begin their ill fated run on TNN, Paul seemed to want to make sure against the network’s wishes, that the Madhouse would be the site of the first set of tapings for the new show. On September 8th 2013, at a WWE live event at the Barclays center in Brooklyn, Paul Heyman, standing next to Curtis Axel, would dismiss the three year old arena, which reportedly cost a billion dollars to build. He would tell the live crowd that it was “a dump compared to an Elks Lodge in Queens,” nearly thirteen years after he would have last set foot there.
One more idea, and this is just me speculating, is that it could also have come down to the building being under the New York City department of Parks and Rec, which I bet isn't as fun as it looks on TV. While ECW always had an edge to it, I doubt a government building and flaming tables would have gone down too well.
Building
Before we get to the Elks Lodge’s history with wrestling, a little background on the building itself. To use it’s proper name, Elks Lodge number 878 had long since stopped being a member-only establishment by the time ECW arrived. The main part of the building was put up for sale by the Elks in 1995, and would eventually be used as a Church. More on that later as it almost stopped shows taking place there several times. The most distinctive part of the venue is the amazing Aztec inspired carvings that surround the stage, and wrap around the balcony. If only Lucha Underground could have been filmed there before the once colourful theater was painted a much more dull colour. According to an article published in 2011 for Scouting New York .com, this was done by the current owners to make the imagery a little less intimidating. They used a different word.
In the 2013 documentary Barbed Wire City, ECW fan and attendee of the Elks Lodge Tony Lewis provided a tour of the venue outside and in, with some rather unique insights. He starts by showing us a fire escape, and tells us that the majority of the ring had to be carried two floors up the outside of the building, as this is where the lower level of the theater was. When he shows us the inside, he points out a window that the ring parts would have to be pushed through. If you, like I have, have ever watched a show from the Elks Lodge and wondered how they fit the reported attendance figures of up to a thousand fans into the small looking venue, the simplest answer is sometimes the best. Tony tells us that a plaque used to be up on the wall telling that the max capacity for the theater was six hundred and fifty three, and ECW would break this regularly with complete disregard. I’ll not tell you everything that Tony shares, and I’ll also include a link to the full segment in the description because it’s worth a watch. One final thing I will add is about a local legend that the Elks Lodge could call its own. Their version of the Straw hat guy. In fact, take it away Tony. *clip*
By the time ECW started putting on shows there, wrestling had already been promoted in the Elks Lodge before. The Pro Wrestling Torch lists an event from December 1996 for a promotion called Ultimate Championship Wrestling, a few months before ECW first ran there. The most notable names that were on this card were ECW talent Tommy Cairo, and ex-WWF stars Jim Neidhart, and in the main event Chris Chavis without the Tatanka gimmick, who beat King Kong Bundy by count out. Not a five count out I assume. Going even further back, in the Wrestling Observer there's evidence of a promotion called Universal Wrestling Superstars running there in ‘92. This card advertised Jimmy Snuka against Demolition Ax, just Ax mind, and SD Jones, whose career was winding down at this point. UWS ran the New York and New Jersey area starting in the late 80’s. According to a site that specialises in documenting Wrestling from New York, their last event in Queens was the card the Observer referenced in ‘92, but the promotion would keep going elsewhere until 1997, and right to the end they would continue to feature local talent on the undercard and former WWF stars on top. Their last main event would be Jimmy Snuka vs Typhoon.
1997
So now we get to ECW’s time in the Elks Lodge. Overall there are nineteen events, some TV tapings and others house shows that took place there. This isn’t going to be a comprehensive deep dive because we’d be here for hours. I will stop off at everything of note that happened in relation to the venue. On April 5th 1997, ECW ran their first event at the Madhouse. The first thing to note about this event is that it took place just eight days before Barely Legal, the company’s first pay per view and a huge milestone for the company. Despite not being an official TV taping and only being filmed by the fan cam, footage would air on the last episode of Hardcore TV before the pay per view, making this the first time the Elks Lodge appeared on televised wrestling show.
They would show part of a match between Rob Van Dam and Pitbull #2, where Van Dam hit a dive and unintentionally clocked Pitbull One, who medics rushed to in case he had reinjured his neck. Shane Douglas would attack him, which was part of the final build towards him versus Pitbull Two at Barely Legal.
Also on the episode, ECW would air a three team tag title match featuring the Gangstas, and two teams who would meet again on the pay per view, the Dudley Boyz and the Eliminators. In this match New Jack would perform a balcony dive, on the very first show in the building mind. These two segments would be the only parts of the show that would ever air on Hardcore TV.
After the first show at the Madhouse, Paul Heyman would gush about the night in an interview with the Torch “In my opinion we had our best spot show, if not our best house show, ever in Queens on Saturday night. The audience was so into the show. It was one of our best shows.” Ye alright Paul, you’re sounding a bit like another promoter.
While the fans at the Elks Lodge were getting to see title matches and TV episodes being taped at future shows, it would be a bit longer before they would actually see a championship change hands. On October 16th, which would again be a TV taping, Bam Bam Bigelow would defeat Shane Douglas for the ECW World title. In all of the events that ECW would have at the Elks, this would be the one and only World title change, though Shane would win his title back a month later at the November to Remember pay per view. Hardcore TV would show future world title changes, but this would be the last one to take place specifically to air on the show, with many after taking place on pay per view, and a couple happening on TNN. You’d have to look to the WWE ECW days to find the next time the ECW World title changed hands with so few viewers watching, mainly because half the crowd had their backs turned.
The final noteworthy event from 1997 came on December 26th, which could have become an annual tradition for ECW, as they held an event there on the same night in ‘98 too. This show starts off unlike regular ECW shows, in that it featured a match between two New Japan wrestlers. The Great Sasuke, who had wrestled for ECW earlier in the year including at Barely Legal, would face Tiger Mask IV, who along with the next night in New Jersey was making his only two appearances for the company. The two get off to a slow start and the crowd begins to boo, even calling out “bullshit,” and some quite offensive against the Japanese chants as the two exchange holds on the mat. While the Torch says nothing about this match, Wade Keller notes that when the two had a rematch on the following night, “The crowd chanted “boring” and “this match sucks” early on.” The only match of the night that would be taped for television would air on January 5th, and it would be an eight man tag team match that played on the ECW vs WWF feud that had been taking place for months. The ECW team of Taz, Sandman, Tommy Dreamer and Al Snow would defeat the WWF team of Doug Furnas, Phil Lafon, Rob Van Dam and Sabu. I promise it makes more sense in the context of the feud why Sabu was on the WWF team, and I am oversimplifying it a bit. Al Snow, who was actually a WWF signed wrestler who had been sent to ECW and developed his new character there, would get the win by roll up on Doug Furnas, and by Summer would be back on Raw, bringing Head with him. The multi person tag match where the good guys triumph would become something of a tradition, as the next year New Jack, Balls Mahoney and Axl Rotten would best the Dudley Boyz to send the crowd home happy.
1998
After a few months away, ECW would return to the Madhouse on March 13th, with an event that the Observer noted had been “sold out several days ahead of time.” Dave makes note there that the capacity is 800, but in the following week’s issue lists a thousand as the attendance. Either Paul is inflating the numbers, or the fire code took a pounding on this night. While the March event was another house show, ECW’s next show at the Elks Lodge is one of the more important ones, as a few memorable moments took place. It is also known for having one of the most distinctive names of any ECW show. On May 14th ‘98, the promotion presented ‘It Ain’t Seinfeld,’ named as such because on the same night, the final episode of Seinfeld was airing. This is completely irrelevant, but as a kid growing up in the UK, we didn’t have Seinfeld, Jerry or his Sitcom, and so for years I had no fucking idea what that name even meant. I guess you could say, Hey whats the deal? Sorry.
This show is notable for more than just it’s name though, as Taz came to the ring with a bag in his hand. He would explain that he felt that the World champion Shane Douglas had been ducking him, and that a man from Pittsburgh could never beat a man from Brooklyn anyway. He presents to the world his own custom made championship, first calling it the Brooklyn world belt, then the name it would be better known as, the FTW title. On this occasion, FTW did not mean ‘for the win’ as it might today. It stood for “fuck the world,” three words that Taz’ on screen persona embodied. In January ‘99 at Guilty as Charged, Taz would defeat Shane for the real ECW World title, and the FTW belt felt like a way of keeping that from happening until the time was right. Douglas would remain champion throughout the whole of ‘98, and would almost seem a bit lost without it.
One more thing of note that occurred on this night, was a pretty epic moment that I’m sure the management of the Elks Lodge weren’t thrilled by. That said, the first show there did have a New Jack balcony dive. The whole ‘98 version of the Dudley Boyz, as well as their manager Joel Gertner would come to the ring to what I believe would be called nuclear heat. The crowd viciously boo’s as the Dudley Boys spit venom right back, paying specific attention to one individual they picked out on the balcony. Perhaps not expecting anything to come of this, the Dudley clan attempted to goad the fan into climbing down the balcony, and getting in the ring. They even promised that they would make sure that he would not be kicked out or worse. These were the days when a fan climbed in the ring, they would get whatever the wrestler who happened to be in there felt they deserved. The tye-dyed trolls moved on with their promo, but after a few minutes, the fan would descend from the balcony, and make his way towards the guard rail. Thankfully, security would get to him before anything else could happen, and the Dudleys would continue on with their planned promo. This does show though, just how incensed the fans could get while being taunted by the Dudleys. As best I can tell from the newsletters at the time, nothing seemed to come of this, and the Elks clearly didn’t mind, or care, that a fan had dropped from the balcony to try and get in the ring.
In August, ECW would, through a situation out of their control, lose their television presence in New York City, Philadelphia and Atlanta, the first two being very important markets for the company. While they were able to get new airings in the latter two, New York proved to be much more difficult. ECW would end up going months without any television in New York. Despite this, ECW continued to run shows in NYC, and in September at the Madhouse, they would come up with a very expensive, and frankly insane sounding way of keeping fans invested. “On the 9/17 Queens show, as the crowd of about 800 left the building, Paul Heyman and Tommy Dreamer were at the exits giving everyone videotapes of the past three television shows since ECW has been off TV in the New York market and basically Heyman wanted the loyal New York fans to see the recent TV shows. The goodwill gesture cost in total about $4,100 between the cost of the tapes and the dubbing and transporting about 1,000 tapes to the Arena.”
As I’m sure you can probably imagine given the time and cost it took, ECW only did this once, leaving their New York fans without access to their television at their next show in November. “ECW didn’t pass out tapes of the TV show to all the fans at the Queens show as they had promised the previous show they’d do as long as they didn’t have New York TV, claiming a problem with the fire marshall, but did take everyone’s name and promised to mail them the last four weeks worth of television shows.”
Before we leave 1998, there was one more event at the Elks Lodge that received some attention from the newsletters, though it wasn't promoted by ECW. It is as best I can tell, the first non-ECW show to take place at the Elks Lodge while the promotion was running shows there. On October 10th, the Long Island Wrestling Federation would promote a card held in the memory of the Junkyard Dog, who had passed away in June ‘98. The show would include many ex-WWF talents, such as Tito Santana, Demolition Ax, again without Smash, Jimmy Snuka and more. What's strange though, is seeing these names alongside some of the future stars of the 2000’s indie scene, most notably Homicide and Low-Ki. More on them later. A couple of ECW names also worked the show, including Spanish Angel and Skull Von Krush, who would be part of the Baldies group later on. LIWF would run one more event at the Elks during ECW’s time there in early ‘99, but ECW soon wouldn’t be running there either.
1999
As we get to 1999, ECW would run four times at the Madhouse, but a big problem was emerging. If you looked purely at ticket sales, which are usually one of a wrestling promotions most important revenue streams, you’d be forgiven for thinking that everything was fine, but ECW’s money problems were still growing. Cheques were bouncing, talent were being owed more and more, and Paul Heyman was having to look for deals that might save the company. By this point ECW had sold out the Elks Lodge many times in a row, and continued to through the upcoming year, but if this wasn’t making enough money for the company, it raised the question of should they be running the smaller venues anymore?
On the weekend of ECW’s first Elks lodge show of the year, they sold out an eleven hundred capacity show in Freeport New York on the Friday, a thousand in the Madhouse on Saturday, and three thousand on Sunday in Poughkeepsie. The Observer would make an interesting comment about this. “There is some question as to whether or not the full houses in small venues can pay the enormous television bills the company has, since it buys time in most major markets it plays. The estimated $250,000 per year bill for MSG cable, for example, can hardly be made up running 1,000-seat buildings in the New York market.” Dave seems to be specifically talking about the Elks Lodge without ever naming it. “Heyman has steadfastly run shows that are admitted money losers because the television looks good, particularly from New York, and being able to pack houses rather than risk moving to larger buildings and potentially not selling out.”
As far as the content of the show, the fans were treated to some stellar wrestling and a surprising twist. Crossing the Line on February 12th would include one of the many singles matches between Yoshihiro Tajiri and Super Crazy, who had quick become intense rivals since Tajiri’s debut in December. The main event of the night saw another famous ECW rivalry revisited, as Rob Van Dam would defend the Television title against Jerry Lynn. The two would a month later meet again at Living Dangerously in what might be their most famous match, so to see it in a much more intimate setting must have felt special.
This night was also the setting for a match that never was, which turned into a major storyline. Originally, the Dudleys were slated to have a dream match of sorts with the Public Enemy, which would have been billed as ECW’s past greatest tag team against their present greatest. When asked about his opinion of the Public Enemy by the Torch, Paul Heyman responded “They should’ve showed up in Queens to do the favor for the Dudleys.” In place of the match that might have taken place, it looked like a different tag team from the early days of ECW were going to clash with the Dudleys, as Mustafa would return to the company to stand along side New Jack, who was already feuding with them. However, Mustafa would actually turn on his former partner, setting up a match between he and New Jack at Living Dangerously.
On April 24th the company would return to New York, but the most interesting thing about this show was what was going on backstage, as Paul Heyman would receive some unexpected visitors backstage, who were after money owed to them. “Tommy Rogers and Sid, who were both working the weekend in the area for Mike O’Brien’s North East Wrestling, showed up at the 4/24 Queens shows to get settled on previously bounced checks. Sid was owed $6,000 and Rogers a much lesser amount and both were paid off although there ended up being a scene between Rogers and Paul Heyman over it.” Sid would end up only making two more appearances for ECW before signing with WCW, but it’s doubtful that those would have happened had Paul not paid him on this night.
Despite all of the money problems, there were opportunities coming that Paul Heyman hoped would help turn things around. The biggest of these was the TNN deal, which after months of negotiations, Heyman would land in June. Paul would waste little time announcing the deal to the world, and he would do so in the middle of the ring, at the Madhouse on July 3rd. A week before this at the ECW arena, Paul would hold a meeting with the wrestlers, hoping to unify them ahead of the announcement, and attempting to lift their spirits. “He asked that they be a “team” and support the company because the next few months would be an exciting period of growth with everyone soon thereafter getting rewarded for their patience.” Paul was very much insistent that the good times were coming, telling the Torch in an interview in July that ECW was never going to go out of business no matter how bleak things had looked from the outside.
It seems though, that whether ECW planned on addressing the size of it’s venues or not, they might have had to leave the Elks Lodge not by choice. The first TNN taping, which would take place from the Madhouse on August 26th was set by the venue itself to be the final wrestling event to take place there. The show is also known under the name ‘Last Night at the Madhouse’ for this reason. It seems though, that for at least for a while this may not have been the case. “The Queens show was scheduled to be the final show in the Moose Lodge as it is being converted into a church. However, the building’s management (who are said to be usually stuffy and nonchalant) got caught up in the emotion of the evening and decided to book a final show at the building on Dec. 18. Heyman says the show will not be a TV taping because he wants it to be more of an intimate night for the Queens fans, whom he is said to consider among the best in wrestling.” This December show is never again mentioned in the Torch or Observer, and on the date that the event was pencilled in for ECW would actually run a show in Chattanooga, as part of a three show tour of Tennessee.
Still, at the time that this show was being booked, ECW thought it was the last night at the Madhouse, and so Paul booked a memorable show. August 26th 1999 was to be the last night in the company for Bubba Ray and D-Von Dudley, who won the tag team titles from Balls Mahoney and Spike Dudley, threatening to take them to WWF. Thankfully this wouldn't happen, as the Dudley’s would lose the titles later in the night to Tommy Dreamer, and a returning hero. Following a very public walk out from WCW, former ECW World champion Raven would make his surprise return much earlier than expected, given that he had only walked on a WCW Nitro taping on August 23rd, just days before this event. At some point in the night, the Torch says that Heyman came to the ring to address the fans about the TNN debut. “A few fans chanted “Raven” and Heyman told them, “You’ll get Raven in 91 days””. In a move that would shock the Madhouse fans, Raven would enter through the crowd, drop Bubba with a DDT, and pin him to win the tag team titles with Dreamer, his hated rival. Tommy would look at Raven like he had seen a ghost, and he would spend the next few weeks reckoning with the idea that his biggest rival was back.
The next few times ECW would run TV tapings in New York, it would be in much larger venues than the Elks lodge, in Buffalo and White Plains. It’s possible to say then that ECW had, at least for the time being, outgrown the small Queens venue. Despite this, ECW would eventually return to the Madhouse one final time, under very different circumstances.
2000
By November of 2000, ECW was in a much rougher shape. TNN was gone, and the company would be a few months from the end. ECW was a few weeks away from a new pay per view event they had added to their calendar, called Massacre on 34th Street. Because of several cancelled shows, there was worry that they might not have enough footage in the can to get them to the event. As a result, according to the Observer “there was work done to try and do a last-minute booking of the Elks Lodge in Queens, NY, where ECW used to tape hot TV’s, because it’s only an 800-seat arena that ECW can fill with a week of publicity, for sometime over Thanksgiving weekend to shoot some new angles for the PPV.” This event would end up not taking place, “because there wasn’t enough time to finalize the deal and get the publicity out on television. They still may add a date in that building before the end of the year with the idea of making it an extra special house show and charging a high ticket price for the event.” This one would end up happening, with some very special guests. Bubba Ray and D-Von Dudley would make one final appearance for ECW at the same venue that they left in.
In early December, the Observer would report on cancelled events in Texas. This meant that after the December 3rd pay per view, the next ECW event would be on the 15th in the Elks Lodge. The Madhouse show was “a high ticket price event in order to try and catch up on bills, which was originally 12/21 but moved up one week because ECW would have had nothing for TV on 12/22.” Unfortunately for ECW though, the show wouldn’t draw as much money as the company needed it to. “while it sold out the 800 seats, (the show) failed to overflow with standing room as it usually did in the past, with tickets jacked up to $40 and $60.”
But what happened on the card itself? “The show was built around the return of the Dudleys, who worked the main event teaming with Tommy Dreamer over Simon Diamond & Swinger & Anderson and were clearly the stars of the show by leaps and bounds over the regulars.” While this was sure to get a reaction from the fans at the Madhouse, not everyone was happy, as “many were upset regarding the Dudleys not selling anything for the ECW guys, in particular Buh Buh not putting over the C.W. Anderson left hand which they push on television.”
Leading up to the night, ECW had been promoting another surprise star, who would turn out to be Taz, who would help the tag team champions Danny Doring and Roadkill. This may sound like an odd pairing, but Doring and Roadkill were actually proteges of Taz, two of the few graduates of the House of Hardcore training school. This return by Taz seems to have been received much better. “Tazz tried to give them a rub afterwards and apparently did a great job with the interview, doing his old catch phrase with a twist, “Beat them if you can, survive if they let you.””
2001
With ECW not long for the world, the December 15th show marks a sort of end of an era. It doesn’t mean however that wrestling stopped at the Elks Lodge though, nor was it the end for ECW wrestlers appearing there. In February 2001, another promotion would swoop in to take their place. “Chris Candido, Kash, Tajiri, Baldies, Mahoney and Whipwreck as well as Electra and Missy Hyatt all worked the 1/26 show for Ultimate Championship Wrestling in Queens at the Elks Lodge, the site of numerous ECW TV tapings, drawing about 400 fans.” The Observer in December notes that this is a new promotion holding their first show, and not the same Ultimate Wrestling Superstars that I mentioned earlier.
As well as the former ECW talent they booked, they also included several talents who would become more prominent names in the 2000’s. The Amazing Red, Homicide, Low-Ki and the SAT who would all work for Ring of Honor when that got started, would mix with half of the ECW roster. The other notable thing about UCW is that their shows appear to be marathons. This card from June of 2001 has fifteen matches on it, including a one night tournament and a battle royal. In September, UCW would run a free show at the Elks Lodge, and apparently expected it to be rammed with people, this wouldn’t be the case though. “According to those there, because it was free, it would have been expected to be a packed house, but only drew about 400 people. Low Ki and Red apparently tore down the house with a **** calibre match.”
At first there was annoyingly little information about Ultimate Championship Wrestling out there, not even a logo, and no listed events beyond this free event in late 2001. I noticed though, that their shows would include title defenses for Impact Championship Wrestling, which would continue to run the Elks Lodge until 2015, eventually becoming ICW No Holds Barred, which is still running today.
Another notable company that would begin to run in the Elks was USA Pro Wrestling, which began in New Jersey in ‘96, and first ran the former Madhouse in 2000. Promoted until 2021 by former wrestler Frank Goodman, USA pro appears to bridge a gap between being one of those companies that I talked about earlier, main evented by 80’s WWF stars, to later booking ex-ECW guys as well as indie talent. According to this note from the Observer, they were still booking Snuka vs Bundy as late as 2000. Can you imagine?
In 2003, Frank Goodman’s USA Pro would actually have a hand in another company being able to run their first ever show in New York. That company is known as Ring of Honor. There have been a few cases over the years of promotions needing to co-promote with a company that already has a license to promote in New York. Perhaps most famously, when AAA planned to run Madison Square Garden they had to co-promoted with Impact, and New Japan did with Ring of Honor for their MSG show. In this case, ROH co-promoted using Frank Goodman’s license. It was first reported in November 2002 in the Observer that ROH “will debut in New York at the Elks Lodge in Queens on 2/8 in a joint promotion with Frank Goodman’s USA Pro Wrestling (which, since it’ll be their license, will be the promotion of record).”
Ring of Honor, with the help of USA Pro, would hold their one year anniversary event at the Elks Lodge, the only ROH show that would ever be held there. This could potentially be because a storyline riot that would get a bit out of control would happen half way through the show, and that not being a great look for a building predominantly used as a church by this point. Another potential reason for no return date is that after years of threatening “The Elks Lodge in Queens, which had been rumored for years, dating back to the ECW days, to be shutting down wrestling, is going to do so in September.” While a little later than planned, USA Pro Wrestling would host the apparent last show at the Elks Lodge, titled “End of an Era.” The fifteen match card included a mix of up and coming indie talent and grizzled ECW veterans. From Low-Ki versus Sonjay Dutt to Shane Douglas versus the Sandman and a marathon show in between. In the main event, Raven would defend the USA Pro heavyweight title against Al Snow in a match that would last forty-five minutes. Can you imagine anything more threatening sounding than an almost hour long Al Snow match on a fifteen bout card? Before you say a half hour video on this channel, ye probably.
Ending
This is the third video that I’ve made for this channel about a former ECW venue, and it’s the only one that is still to this day predominantly known as theirs, approaching twenty five years since the company closed its doors. Unlike the Hammerstein Ballroom and the 2300 arena which have hosted many promotions since, the Madhouse of Extreme has stayed at the indie level when it has hosted wrestling. This is in part due to the new ownership, but the size of the venue doesn’t help either. Or that fire escape.
Early on in my reading for this video, I found this quote from an Observer that stuck with me about the Elks Lodge. It perhaps explains why major promotions never seem to run there, not since ECW at least. “One of ECW’s problems is that Heyman has often presented the product in buildings for atmosphere, such as the ECW Arena, or the Elks Lodge in Queens, but that even with a full house, the show itself ends up being a money loser.”
For better or worse, and I think history will probably say for worse, Paul Heyman had an interesting philosophy when it came to how he chose his venues. “Heyman, whose background from the night club business before wrestling taught him it’s better for the illusion of the club to pack a small hall, than to draw twice as many people in a three times as large building, taking in more money, but having empty seats give the impression it’s not a hot product.” This is the mentality of someone who wants to deliver the perception of a really hot product. One that fans are desperate to get through the door for, but not necessarily one that will sell enough tickets to sustain itself. Herein lies the problem with ECW running the smaller venues. Had they lived into the 2000’s, who knows where they would have found, or what ways they would have found, to draw bigger crowds?
Sources:
Intro
Paul Heyman on the building in 2013 https://vip.pwtorch.com/2023/09/11/10-yrs-ago-wwe-live-event-results-9-8-2013-shield-vs-usos-orton-vs-daniel-bryan-plus-punk-brie-bella-dean-ambrose-rvd-natalya-sami-drew-more/
Aztec theater https://www.scoutingny.com/the-incredible-aztec-theater-hidden-in-queens/
Barbed Wire City, 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQjvW_w8Q_k (Link to section used)
PWT Jan 18th 97 - Wrestling had already been happening there https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/01/07/vip-1997-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-423-jan-18-1997-wwf-shotgun-saturday-night-syndicated-program-debuts-part-two-of-joey-styles-torch-talk-more/
WON July 20th 92 - Earliest mention in Observer https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/july-20-1992-observer-newsletter-vader-makes-title-history-title-belt/
New York Pro Wrestling Results https://www.nyprowrestling.com/results/
1997
PWT April 12th - Paul on first show https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/04/02/vip-1997-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-435-apr-12-1997-ecws-ppv-debut-preview-paul-heyman-interview-wcw-spring-stampede-ppv-more/
PWT Jan 3 98 Tiger Mask vs Sasuke https://vip.pwtorch.com/2017/12/26/vip-1998-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-473-january-3-1998-in-depth-starrcade-report-including-sting-capturing-wcw-title-from-hogan-plus-ratings-roundtable-reviews-and-more/
1998
WON March 16th 98 Sold out https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/march-16-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wcw-turmoil-talentnew/
WON March 23rd attendance number, Al Snow notes https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/march-23-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wcw-turmoil-ufc-16-tons/
WON July 6th 98 July sell out https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/july-6-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-king-ring/
WON Aug 3rd 98 losing New York https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/august-3-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-more-leno-and-wcw-wwf/
WON Sept 28th 98 Tapes https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/september-28-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-raw-overtakes-nitro/
WON Oct 12th 98 New York market https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/october-12-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-monday-night-war-ratings/
WON Dec 28th 98 New faces https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-28-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-bischoff-gets-historic/
WON Oct 19th 98 Long Island Wrestling Federation JYD show https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/october-19-1998-wrestling-observer-newsletter-pride-4-results-brian/
JYD show card https://www.nyprowrestling.com/results/1990s/1998.html
1999
WON Feb 22nd 99 Crossing the Line, money problems https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/february-22-1999-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ecw-having-financial/
PWT July 3rd Talent meeting ahead of TNN https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/06/29/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-555-july-3-1999-keller-dissects-hogans-interview-on-larry-king-live-cover-story-details-wwf-embarrassing-wcw-in-its-home-market-cover-sidebar/
PWT July 17th heyman interview post TNN deal https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/07/13/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-557-july-17-1999-cover-story-on-jesse-venturas-controversial-decision-to-be-guest-celebrity-at-summerslam-paul-heyman-interview-in-depth-cove/
WON August 30th 1999 Raven https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/august-30-1999-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-summerslam-review/
PWT Sept 4th Elks being the real first TNN taping, Raven return and Public Enemy comment https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/08/31/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-564-september-4-1999-cover-story-detailing-wwfs-help-getting-steroid-doctor-suspended-cover-sidebar-looks-at-venturas-problems-with-media-co/
PWT September 4th End for the building https://vip.pwtorch.com/2019/08/31/vip-1999-back-issue-pro-wrestling-torch-564-september-4-1999-cover-story-detailing-wwfs-help-getting-steroid-doctor-suspended-cover-sidebar-looks-at-venturas-problems-with-media-co/
2000
WON Nov 20th 2000 Potentially used one last time in Nov 2000 https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-20-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-shinya-hashimoto-fired/
WON Nov 27th 2000 more on above
https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-27-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-survivor-series-review/
WON Dec 4th 00 One last show in December - Dudleys https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-4-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ecw-turmoil-wcw-mayhem/
WON Dec 25th 00 Show didn’t do well https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-25-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-blue-demon-passes-away/
2001
WON Feb 5th 01 NAPTE - UCW runs Elks
https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/february-5-2001-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-signs-justin/
WON Dec 18th 00 - Another Ultimate in 2001 https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/december-18-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-armageddon-reviewed/
UCW Results https://www.nyprowrestling.com/results/2000s/2001.html
WON Sept 25th 01 Free show doesn’t do well https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/september-25-2001-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ufc-reenters-ppv/
WON May 8th 00 USA Pro Wrestling Frank Goodman https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/may-8-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wwf-backlash-review-sakuraba/
WON Nov 25th 02 ROH First noted - Fank Goodmans USA-PW https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-25-2002-observer-newsletter-survivor-series-review-more-97565/
WON June 9th 03 Venue apparently closing again https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/june-9-2003-observer-newsletter-career-and-death-freddie-blassie-97627/
WON Nov 17th 03 Last show there advertised https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/november-17-2003-observer-newsletter-bob-sapp-vs-akebono-death-crash/
Ending
Venue Money loser https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/october-9-2000-wrestling-observer-newsletter-wcw-sale-rumors-rock/
WON Feb 22nd 99 nightclub quote
https://members.f4wonline.com/wrestling-observer-newsletter/february-22-1999-wrestling-observer-newsletter-ecw-having-financial/
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